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organic vs salt based

nutrients

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#1 flyinglow

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 06:47 PM

Some of you know me, and for years I've grown in soil.

I've enjoyed growing organically, it makes you feel proud....

go ahead say it. "I grew my weed organically"

We almost wear it on our chest like a badge of honor.

 

you get your various products, your bat guano and what not...

you brew your tea and wholla you fed your soil, which fed your roots,

which fed your plant.

 

Now i get the initial fear when you hear someone who is not growing organically...

but its a misnomer to judge a salt based grow vs organic,

as you would lets say an organic/free range chicken vs perdue...

 

In the instance of growing a pot plant, all a non organic grow means is,

getting your nutrients from salt based compounds to form the needed levels on n-p-k.

 

now remember above we mentioned that.... you fed your soil, which fed your roots,

which fed your plant. think about that, its pretty inefficient, dont ya think?

Its very inefficient, to say the least.

 

Using a soilless grow or a hydro grow using salt based nutes,  you can eliminate alot of that and use the roots to feed your plant directly, why because (in simple terms) the salt based nutes are more easily digested by the plant, hence the increase in yeild. Which can be dramatic.


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#2 Bueller

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 07:02 PM

Climate dependant, would agree!

 

But for some locales, storage of a true organic mix that includes a microbial army of specific fungi and bacteria to effectively solubilize the soil elements into the molecular food the plant takes in thru the cationic ion exchange may be problematic.

 

Should the microbial army die or not be introduced properly and in population sufficient to solubilize the construct of the "organic" soil and make the nutrients available, "organics" can be horrible to the unknowing .

 

Love my organics, I grow lots of veggies, ornamentals and flowers, on to beekeeping and compost is my friend.

 

Storage of a viable organic mixture that I have constructed was problematic, temperature in the barn went to 20 below after a wetting and turn, froze like a brick and I lost the herd,,, worst grow I ever had,,, indoor as my state is behind the curve nationally is my preferred method now after 38 years outside in the dirt.

 

In my case, a refined input of elements of my informed choice that are water soluble will be more effective and will give me a more dynamic grow over the long run, and has for the last 9 years or so. I disagree with the term "chemical" it is "elemental" at the aformentioned transfer or CIE.

 

 

Good topic


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#3 flyinglow

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 08:39 PM

Hey Pete, thanks for replying.  ya know I thought it was a good (engaging) post too,

however no one would reply, I felt like a leper. lol

 

its kinda frustrating as I wrote a lengthy reply earlier and clicked post but when I came back....

it was gone, like it never happened.

 

So Im gonna grab my trusty pipe, get my head together and write a shorter version...

sorry for the edited version, but at my age, the only things you dont shorten are sex and farts.

 

I understand your point of view and agree with you. Especially about the word chemical vs the word element.

Element is atleast true to form.

In addition the elements are much more easily digested by a plant.

 

Anyways I've been having this crazy thought, a frankenstein type of thought......

Now I understand a lot of dirtbags use beer as a secret weapon, and I have a friend

who swears his secret weapon is milk straight from the farm, meaning not pasteurized....

 

now mind you my idea is so crazy I hate to share it, out of fear of being called out on it. lol

but my wife insisted i share it with a friend who moved here from out west where she worked

in this industry as a medical grower, and she claims she has seen my idea implemented out west....

 

my thought was, why not buy an IV bag and feed the plant from the IV into the stem?

you could experiment with 2 plants, one getting the iv at the bottom and the other at the top.

 

I know this sounds like some stupid stoner moment, but give it a moment to sink in, this should work.

 

I mean you wont hurt the plant with the needle, who among us has never snapped a plants stem and

repaired it with a piece of a straw or some scotch tape?

 

It could be the equivalent of adding a turbocharger to your cars engine.

ok thats enough of my crazy stoner thought for today.

peace out


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#4 420circuit

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Posted 12 December 2015 - 02:03 PM

An IV to the stem sounds nuts, but I would love to see it. Have you noticed when removing fan leaves, that there will be a fiber at the base of the leaf's stem, that runs waaay down the main stalk? I wonder if that is part of the plant's 'circulatory system' that carries nutrients-water up from the roots for that particular leaf. (or bud)

 

The brix of the plant seems to be related to sugar, please excuse my lack of having a total grasp of this concept, but it looks to me like adding something like Sweet or molasses to a mature plant decreases the internal pressure and helps it to draw in more nutrients. This might be easier than trying to install a central mainline to inject nutes. But, I'd still like to see it done, please take pictures if you try it, they would make nice meme pics. "Creative Stoner Moment" is a better term, kind of like how I installed some yellow sticky traps after toking a sativa. Turned them into tubes, yellow glue outside, around the bases of all the potted plants. Looked silly but seemed to help get the gnats before they made it up to the buds. I have since discovered Gnatrol and use it for the first few waterings of bag soil, and have not seen a single gnat since.

 

I posted on another thread about using Jack's fertilizers and have become a big fan because of how well my plants are growing with it. Supplying the plant with what it needs, in a safe non-toxic way, is working for me. Not understanding why people call powdered fertilizer salts, perhaps it is meant to show disdain for a non-organic method. Many organic growers get downright evangelical about that method. I simply supply what the plants need and have found the sweet spot to include powdered fertilizer.

 

Thank you for keeping bees, it is a noble task and so important, but becoming a lost art as people migrate to the suburbs.


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#5 anothertime

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Posted 20 December 2015 - 11:57 AM

why reinvent the wheel it sounds over the top to me just read some of petes  jims or tokes (and i could mention several more) grow logs and see what extraordinary growers they have become think this belongs with the zero till thread!!!!!!!! why bugger with what has worked in the last 50 years!!! or post then toke up...........................iv in my opinion is used for patients in the hospital only thing similar is that the environment walls are painted white in both cases!!

 

 

the above comments are made by a man not totally in control of his own mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by anothertime, 20 December 2015 - 12:00 PM.

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#6 jm420

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 08:00 AM

Mineral based plant nutrients are just that, nutrients derived from minerals, and by definition they are considered “inorganic”. Through an energy rich process, there are a number of minerals that can be mined and then treated to create a multitude of mineral based plant nutrients. These mined mineral rich rocks are treated with heat or possibly with chemicals or any process to specifically separate the target mineral or minerals from other unwanted minerals that may be attached. Some people call mineral based nutrients “synthetic” since it’s so energy intensive or because the extraction may require a chemical process to break down to the minerals may leave some impurities.

This mineral based type of plant food represents the many advancements in science and technology, and is the primary type of plant food used in many hydroponic systems trying to grow organically. By nature, a mineral based plant nutrient is preferred because it is soluble in water, buffered accordingly, and in an available form for the plants to consume. Essentially, what this means is that a mineral nutrient program would be preferred in a hydroponic system because of the ease it interacts with water; as opposed to its organic counterparts which often times take much agitation to dissolve and are still less available to the plant in the form of plant food. Organic products need to break down at the root zone before they are completely available to the plant, but that is another topic entirely.


Unfortunately most mineral supplements contain minerals in the form referred to as ‘mineral salts’.  Even though mineral salts are often called “natural”, they  are rocks (e.g. calcium carbonate exists as the rock commonly known as limestone) or they are chemically produced in accordance with the United States Pharmacopoeia (USP).  Mineral salts are natural food for plants, they are not a natural food for humans--humans do not have roots or hyphae!


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#7 flyinglow

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Posted 24 December 2015 - 12:10 PM

 

. By nature, a mineral based plant nutrient is preferred because it is soluble in water, buffered accordingly, and in an available form for the plants to consume. Essentially, what this means is that a mineral nutrient program would be preferred in a hydroponic system because of the ease it interacts with water; as opposed to its organic counterparts which often times take much agitation to dissolve and are still less available to the plant in the form of plant food. Organic products need to break down at the root zone before they are completely available to the plant, but that is another topic entirely.

 

 

I love your post, and thank you for participating in the topic.

Actually I think talking about the need to break down at the root zone before the nutes are available to the plant is part of this topic.

We are all here for the fellowship, and to hopefully learn something new.

I'm quite use to organic growing, but my next grow I'm switching from soil to hydro....

If the mineral based nutes are more easily absorbed by the plant, wouldn't that hold true in soil too?


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#8 jm420

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 10:11 AM

my guess is yes ,lots of peeps use salt based in soil, ,

i grow coco and dwc so im more familiar with those mediums


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#9 Turf

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Posted 25 December 2015 - 06:32 PM

in my opinion :)

 

biggest difference to growing in soil or hydro is the fertilizer needed.

 

in soil, you only need to replace NPK, as that is what is easily lost from the soil.  a fertile soil should have plenty of its own micro nutrients and not need the full spectrum of nutrients that are feed in hydroponic mixtures.

 

in soiless or hydroponic, you need to replace all nutrients that would have been in the soil media.  Plants need 17 essential nutrients, all nicely available in a bag of jacks.

 

feed bone meal, blood meal, tea, to soil.  feed jacks to soilless. 

 

:)


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#10 420circuit

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 11:10 AM

With my current indoor tent grow the plants are growing in Roots Organic soil and enjoy waterings with a light dose of Jack's added. They are doing great. The only downside has been my psyche, it makes me feel weird to put "salts" into a perfectly fine organic soil, even though the "science" part of my brain is cool with it. So, without editorializing too much, I can report that mixing these methods is working very well. My intention is to re-use this soil 2-3 times before retiring it to the outdoor compost pile for the outdoor container-grown vegetables. If there is a better way, I am open to learning it, but from what I have learned so far, this method makes the most sense for my needs, a small and economical home-grow set up primarily for making medical oil. I keep 3 bags of Jack's on hand and put 1/4 tsp of each into a gallon jug for most waterings. But the hydro system is a different story. Mainly Jack's there too, and the resulting buds were healthy and had good resin coverage. I really think that this Jack's system delivers the best bang for your growing budget, at least as far as for making extracts, where the plants need to be kept free from anything sprayed, so no foliar feeding and healthy plants right up to harvest. I actually have done a comparison test of buds grown with different methods and can say for sure that the organically grown buds had a more intense and "funky" aroma, but the smokability and effect were indistinguishable. I did a couple grows in the organic style, feeding with brewed tea and decided that it wasn't my cup of tea. But I can understand why people like it. I'll put up pics soon as "without pictures, it didn't happen."


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#11 jm420

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Posted 28 December 2015 - 03:35 PM

nutes r nutes imo difference i think is with salts ya kill all the shit in the soil that makes npk

dunno if that makes sense 2 anyone ,if ya add molasses to your salt based feeding program its useless cuz no microbes to break down the sugars cuz they dont feed on salts ,only analogy i can come up with

as for taste and smell i disagree that will be strain dependent ,difference is yield imo and thats based on same cut grown 3 different waze

imma no scientist ,and prefer soiless 

ya got more control with salts versus guessing with organic imo


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#12 flyinglow

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 01:05 PM

Jm420, I agree with you, you certainly do have more control with a salt/element based grow.

And as you said, the yield is increased too.

 

I think with the molasses though, there might be some confusion.

The way It was explained to me, as the plant readies itself for the end of season,

it prepares to get its flowers/seeds in order to further the cycle of life,

meaning it gets ready to drop its seed filled flowers to the ground for next year.

But thats in nature, for us there is no next year or seeds, we want to harvest.

 

Problem is, as it nears its end of life, it slows down its sugar production.

This in turn slows down plant growth, (bud growth) and a host of other things happen too.

 

Since we're not in nature and our main goal is quality and yield, you would add

molasses(sugars) to increase the sugar levels and in turn force the plant to continue growing bigger and better buds.


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#13 jm420

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Posted 29 December 2015 - 06:26 PM

the microbes that would convert the sugars to make them available to the plant r dead

unless ya add that in to your feedng regiment and supply organic to keep shit alive at your root and media as well as power fedding with the salts

and salts r the prob with soil i post a good read 2mmrw

thats why better results with coco than soil its expensive but pays for itself

drain to waste cost money but never any salt buildup 

dunno if makes sense but works for me 

end of the day to succeed inside is environment ,and what time ya wanna spend


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#14 420circuit

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Posted 03 January 2016 - 11:33 AM

I don't think that adding a little Jack's to the waterings is killing all of the life in the root zone. But some of the microbes may not like the flavor too much. As long as the plants are healthy, I'm happy. I feel like I discovered something with regard to nutes, the amount that I spend on my garden is way lower since I switched from Botanicare and the buds are still fine. The concept of brix with regard to plants is a subject that has many aspects, so many that it was a challenge to read up on it, and I may have missed some important parts, but what I got out of the reading was that the cells of the plant are better able to soak up nutrients when they are in a higher brix state, which we can influence by adding molasses to the root zone. Pretty sure the microbes enjoy it too, so maybe a larger and healthier population of those too, making it a good idea to add the sugar for multiple reasons. I'm sure that ants would enjoy finding molasses, so if you have any insect populations, maybe be cautious with the sugar.



#15 420circuit

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 01:49 PM

Going to see if I can post up a series of 11 pics that show what nutrients I am using. My grows in both soil and hydro are doing well with these products, the trick seems to be in their application rates and timing. The hydro plants are used mainly for edible oil and the soil buds are intended to smoke, but get tossed into the oil pile if they get to be more than about 6 months old.

 

The core nutrients are Jack's, with additions of Azomite, Epsom Salts (Cal-Mag), Ancient Age (humic and fulvic), root stimulation (recently had best results from Great White) and molasses.

 

Not an expert here, been growing indoors for about 4 years with good results and always interested in learning how others are doing this. I am quite certain that there is a healthy microbe population in the soil grown plants' root zone, that they have not been wiped out by the application of these nutrients and supplements. This system reflects what my needs are, a simple and easy to care for method of producing cannabis oil for self-treatment and some fine buds to enjoy, at a reasonable cost. Not going for the "ultimate buds" or a Cannabis Cup award, just trying to apply common sense to this situation.

 

I can post application details if you are interested, but generally about half of what the label says has been my rule of thumb.

 

nute-1_zpsn2jtlnnp.jpgnute-2_zpsla6xduf0.jpgnute-3_zpsp06zj4s5.jpgnute-4_zpsodwylv2l.jpgnute-5_zpsvv0bvtjj.jpgnute-6_zpsbs6y2zw7.jpgnute-7_zpsica5ialj.jpgnute-8_zpstundx7o9.jpgnute-9_zpsekokqlwa.jpgnute-10_zpsxod3vi8m.jpgnute-11_zpsfug0fywq.jpg


Soil plants live in a small tent under 600W HPS and a 300W LED. These enjoyed Roots Organic soil and the "salt" nutrients.tent%20day%2057-1_zpswmm7em1l.jpg







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