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WARNING!to all you home breeders


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#1 anothertime

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 09:40 AM

this is what happens with mj genes if you are breeding and not using a large plant selection base!!!!Attached File  384760_241009315952522_1259550513_n.jpg   40.26KB   17 downloads
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#2 Bueller

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 10:50 AM

ROFLMSAO... Doc G's work?
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#3 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 11:01 AM

I'll just add that if your going to breed your breeding stock should be as stable as possible.
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#4 GaGrown

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Posted 01 January 2014 - 01:10 PM

this is what happens with mj genes if you are breeding and not using a large plant selection base!!!!Attached File  384760_241009315952522_1259550513_n.jpg   40.26KB   17 downloads


Now.. That was funny as hell!
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#5 teddys head

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Posted 02 January 2014 - 11:05 AM

:lol: goodin


Health and happiness
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#6 plant boy

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Posted 09 January 2014 - 06:27 AM

great pic
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#7 GreenWeaver

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:13 PM

This reminds me......what you get when you cross an elephant with a rhino...Hell if I know


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#8 mal420xl

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:42 PM

for all you genetics whizkids out there, i have a request. in your endeavors to create your freaky strains with funky names and awesome effects, can you please remember to breed back in some of the things that makes it a weed? like tolerance to tempertures, ablity to adapt to various soil/water conditions etc. it used to be a very hardy adaptable plant. i understand its no cake walk but just try to keep it in the back of your mind the next time your working on your next generation. and if at all possible....maybe find a way to produce trichs the size of grapes?


Edited by mal420xl, 01 March 2014 - 12:43 PM.

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#9 sweettooth222

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 04:26 AM

thats the first this I'm looking at is structure, ability to stand high temps, humidity, temp fluctuation, the ability to take more or less light but as well as that goes some traits are not always bad things. from that I've been planing on stabilizing for potency and specific medicinal properties.....now i don't think I'm going to get all of the stretch out of the og but the stretch probably is a good trait to have in any outdoor crop in a humid climate so don't go thinking its not adaptable anymore or that  all us "genetics whizkids" don't have any idea what we want out of a cross and that we just want a bad ass plant.....well we do want that bad ass plant but just like native plants have adapted to different areas we have to adapt these plants to our taste.....

 

Im just hoping I'm not the only one that is taking this breading thing seriously for my age bracket because i do hear some of the stupidity that goes into some misconception of the fact that being lazy (an F1 hybrid) is a better cross than spending your time to stabilize genetics to crate a whole "new strain"......

 

New strain doesn't refer to an F1 cross with a new name or a bag seed found with a new name.......... White widow, blueberry, Cindy 99, 

 

when Mr. Soul found Princess he didn't revers it and sell S1 seeds and if he did Cinderella 99 would not be around still the way it is......no he took years of locking down traits using a "male" for its traits

 

Male not reversed female!!!!

 

 

 

 

thanks for always being there for my rants GP you guys are great been crazy busy and hope to get a camera to get a real journal up. 


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#10 CrazyDave

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Posted 16 July 2015 - 11:03 PM

Can't believe Kak doesn't add to the humour :D


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#11 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 17 July 2015 - 09:06 PM

Breeding done right is an art and there are too many pollen chucker's selling iffy breeding as primo seeds. Even small breeders can do well if they know what they want and use stable genetics with the right genes to achieve it. If your showing 4-5 pheno's your not there yet. 2 pheno's is about right, and if all plants in a run are a single, consistent pheno, your fully stable. I'll add that cannabis tends to be "wild" even when stable and adapts to environmental changes readily.....


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#12 sweettooth222

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 10:10 AM

Breeding done right is an art and there are too many pollen chucker's selling iffy breeding as primo seeds. Even small breeders can do well if they know what they want and use stable genetics with the right genes to achieve it. If your showing 4-5 pheno's your not there yet. 2 pheno's is about right, and if all plants in a run are a single, consistent pheno, your fully stable. I'll add that cannabis tends to be "wild" even when stable and adapts to environmental changes readily.....

I will have to add everything can be turned into an art if truly done right and in order to get to the point of becoming that good at anything comes down to 2 things truly caring about doing what it is to the best of your ability for unselfish reasons and never stopping what it is your doing for any reason (Unless you would like to throw in the insanity definition and then it come down to learning from your mistakes)

 

and yes thank you for saying that pheno variation is the biggest indicator of what kind of work has been done leading up to the cross of the parents (either by the breeder, nature or past breeders) putting a male in a room of females is not breeding

Pos Vibes


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#13 anothertime

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:35 AM

to breed correctly you surely need more than a 4x4 tent real breeders have 100s of phenos to chose from as there dominate plant at home all you are doing is creating a poor product unless you have a network of folks running the new genes to fully test then the results should be condensed into a few possibles and that isnt calculated on 1 or 2 runs its over several.the reason imo that these days we( have made or own soup )to live in with all these breeders now that are bringing out 15-20 new strains(fat pockets nothing else) a year.my opinion only unless you totally understand the science behind gene selection i think your still better off to buy from a breeder or friend that has a product that is well documented and has been grown a few generations to see what is the truth and what isnt!!! end result is poor genes and wasted grow space on poor genetics!!!!!this means less or no medication for those that need it most.(folks with that 4x4 grow tent)most everyone is a breeder at one point or other in there growing career but also ive noticed all these wonderful plants last one run or two and something new is in there place.not many calculations are needed if that first huge bragged up successful plant has the same growers trying something new the next run.once a way back i had found in a willie jack seed what i thought was the holy grail that plant was part of my rotation for over 5 years!!!!!we really dont need anymore ducks with alligator heads thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! where are the days of simple names and fewer choices when i started there were probably available skunk,panama red,columbian gold,and a couple hazes all were pasted from one local grower to another most seeds were produced from these varieties which started as a mexicana bag seed and out of many many seeds these were the best and the genetics passed in your circle of known growers.(long before computers)

 

WAY TO MANY BREEDERS AND NO CONTROLS LEAVE THE BREEDING TO THE PROS WITH BIG NETWORKS!!!!!!!!!


Edited by anothertime, 20 November 2015 - 10:55 AM.

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#14 flyinglow

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Posted 03 December 2015 - 07:18 PM

cross breeding is some hard work, and it takes years to produce a stable

F1 grade strain. “F1” denotes that the seeds or plants have two true-breeding parents. The crossing of F1 hybrid strains produces plants whose characteristics won’t be the same as the original true-breeding parents, though they may share some. Plant quality is lost because the variation in genes is extended and making it less easy to foresee characteristics. The process is endless; F2s can be bred with other F2s creating F3s, with a further loss of quality.

 

An F2 made from two F1s give…
50% F1 trait for a given atribute.
25% Parent one trait for a given atribute.
25% Parent two trait for a given atribute.

 

However, if you backcross your F1 with Parent one again your F2’s turn out like this…
50% F1 trait for a given atribute.
50% Parent one trait for a given atribute.

Now, this is the bit that I suppose is the magic of backcrossing, when you breed your F2 backcross with Parent one yet again you get either..
100% F1 trait or you get..
100% Parent one trait.
These are sometimes called F3 backcross-squared and at the best thing about doing it this way is this actually LOCKS a high percentage of the genes down. you can then carry on breeding you F3 squared backcrosses with each other and you should not get too much fluctuation in the type. Really after this point you are really trying to select the best and strongest in the hope that you eliminate any weakness.

You might, and probably will find, at this point, that the F3 backcross-squared isnt what you were looking for when you started your project. It is then back to the drawing board to do it all over again in the hope that this time the genes fall a bit better.

 

It can, and often does, take years or even decades before a profesional, well, TOP profesional breeder has the seed that he was hoping to get when he started the project. He will not use the backcross route always, but will use it occasionaly, He will not release any seeds untill he is 100% happy and he knows that the only way he can really get to this point is by massive sampling rates selecting the best from hundreds of individuals for numerous qualities.
note where I put above that you get 100% F1 it should have read 100% F2 (50% F1 + 50% Parent one).

 

This is actually just scraping the surface, as there is lots more to breeding.

I dont have the patience to do it.

I'd rather buy my stable genetics, its worth it.

To be honest as expensive as femenized seeds are from a trusted vendor,

speaking for myself....they are worth the money.

 

I recently bought 10 fem mazar, retail is normally about 130 bucks,

but I got 'em on sale for 60 bucks, how can you loose?

just my two cents worth

peace out

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#15 BrotherWill

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Posted 15 December 2015 - 07:38 AM

I Hear That On The Patience And The Even Larger Amount Of Work Involved Crossing/Backcrossing. I've Only Got One Pure Sativa Strain Left.

 

And I Sure Can't Lose It. I've Had This Strain For Over 35 Years. Yeah, Hopefully Everyone Gets Good Trusted Service For Stable Genetics. My 2 Cents....

 

Nice Post Flyinglow ! Peace. BW


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#16 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 11:14 AM

It is time consuming, but indoors you can get three grows a year, which speeds things up a lot. The trick using stable parent genes. I've seen breeders who tell you that you'll 4+ pheno's, which means that they aren't even trying to make good seeds and is the worst form of pollen chucking.....


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#17 420circuit

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:33 AM

From what I have seen of attempts to create new strains around here, Colorado, hermies are the single greatest problem, where the new seeds grow out plants with inter-sex traits. I tried growing out a few Casey Jones beans from a local grower and found all of them had both flowers and pollen sacs, so had to discard every one, which is a lot of wasted effort. After chatting with several experts in the field, I was told that certain strains do not work well together, but finding accurate details on this topic is difficult. Couple breeders told me that the Chem strains were especially tough to cross successfully, but they were not clear of the reasons, just sharing experience. I do know a couple guys who are focused on landrace strains for breeding, both to preserve genetics and to develop stable crosses. I like how some popular breeders are sharing their methods, like TGA and Rare Dankness, allowing growers to see and maybe even participate in the process by running testers. Best advice that I was given is to destroy all of the hermies to avoid accidental pollination with crappy genetics and 'seeding' a perfectly nice garden of buds. I found a nice Blue Afghani male that I used on lower branches of a couple females recently, including a Blueberry, so I am guilty of looking for a lucky hybrid too. Like playing the genetic lottery!


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#18 BrotherWill

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 12:53 AM

Very Informative Posts...  Welcome 420circuit And Nice To Meet You.  Hey AT... Happy To See You. Thanks Very Much Everyone For The Read Through...

 

Peace... Brother Will

 

hermie-pollen-sacs-pistils.jpgP1010029.jpgMALE-FEMALE-plant-cannabis.jpg


Of Course... To The Right, We Are Viewing A Pure Male And Female {Or Femelle}

 

The Other Two Photos Are With Hermie 'Traits.'


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#19 jm420

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 11:05 AM

From what I have seen of attempts to create new strains around here, Colorado, hermies are the single greatest problem, where the new seeds grow out plants with inter-sex traits. I tried growing out a few Casey Jones beans from a local grower and found all of them had both flowers and pollen sacs, so had to discard every one, which is a lot of wasted effort. After chatting with several experts in the field, I was told that certain strains do not work well together, but finding accurate details on this topic is difficult. Couple breeders told me that the Chem strains were especially tough to cross successfully, but they were not clear of the reasons, just sharing experience. I do know a couple guys who are focused on landrace strains for breeding, both to preserve genetics and to develop stable crosses. I like how some popular breeders are sharing their methods, like TGA and Rare Dankness, allowing growers to see and maybe even participate in the process by running testers. Best advice that I was given is to destroy all of the hermies to avoid accidental pollination with crappy genetics and 'seeding' a perfectly nice garden of buds. I found a nice Blue Afghani male that I used on lower branches of a couple females recently, including a Blueberry, so I am guilty of looking for a lucky hybrid too. Like playing the genetic lottery!

ill thow my 2 cents in ,since im quite familiar with cj and chem

i wouldnt touch any cj unless h3ads gear,and with the genetics herms are going to be there but defitely keepers to be found,good luck finding his seeds though

chem and chem crosses  should all come with a warning 

my 4sd x cj  isnt stable a couple have thrown male flowers

now my 4sd xchem double diesal so far is stable but still comes with a warning

 

my thoughts on subfool is he isnt a breeder but a mouthpiece he has others do the breeding and you'll find hermies in just about all his strins

scot from rare dankness good dude and was at the top of his game till he sold out to spain,nowadaze seems half of his stuff dont even sprout nevermind herm

im by no means a breeder barely a pollen chucker,but it took 3 years to find the right male to use in my 4sd xcdd (susq chem) Attached File  IMG_8831.JPG   213.57KB   0 downloads


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#20 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 11:24 AM

Hermie's are tough since cannabis can produce both sides. Some strains like Thai have real hermie problems, but careful breeding can clean things up. All the get rich quick breeders don't want to spend many generations cleaning up their genetic lines......


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#21 brim

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Posted 18 December 2015 - 05:09 PM

if you want something done right, do it yourself. thats what most breeders do, but they keep it to them themselves too.


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#22 BrotherWill

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Posted 19 December 2015 - 01:41 PM

True Thoughts And Words Brim... And Very Well Stated In Just One Sentence. Thanks Very Much... Peace, BW


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#23 CoNtRoVeRsIaL

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 03:56 PM

Hermie's are tough since cannabis can produce both sides. Some strains like Thai have real hermie problems, but careful breeding can clean things up. All the get rich quick breeders don't want to spend many generations cleaning up their genetic lines......


Agreed.Um interested to know your thoughts on Subcools genetics,like JTR, who he himself said all JTR phenos put off nanners towards the end, ive ran 2 and both done it,very very small at the last week or so of flower, do you bekieve this coyld be bred out or just a side effect of the genetics?
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#24 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 10:35 PM

Agreed.Um interested to know your thoughts on Subcools genetics,like JTR, who he himself said all JTR phenos put off nanners towards the end, ive ran 2 and both done it,very very small at the last week or so of flower, do you bekieve this coyld be bred out or just a side effect of the genetics?

Plants that have a long flowering period can do this. This is a plants final survival strategy, and breeding can improve it, but only so much... :gardening-smiley-emoticon:


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#25 Deepwaterdude

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 08:12 AM

On the herm subject, I've seen a lot of male flowers near the ends of my recent grows, mainly due to grower error. Speaking of which, this is my favorite of all time; I went in the growroom at night to plug in the water pump on my top drip fed dwc, and accidentally plugged in my 4ft, 4 bulb t-5 set, which was sitting close by. For the next few days, instead of the drip, that light was on 15 minutes of every hour. I discovered it on a 3 am bathroom trip, proving yet again that I may be a huge enthusiast, but I'm a terrible grower. This should make all of you feel better. That said, even if you don't screw up on that scale, high nutrients can result in more hermies, which is something I've learned more recently. Also, my NepJam threw sterile nanners toward the end with no stress, actually a sign she was close to done and meditating on her end. One thing that helps with the long flowerers to avoid eternal reflowering and that confused end, is to lower light period for the last 6 weeks to 11/13, or even 10.5. 


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