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KD's Magical Nute Program


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#1 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 03:55 PM

That's right folks I said MAGICAL! That's the way people seem to see fertilizer used on cannabis nowadays and that is why a certain big unnamed nutrient marketer has a line of nutes that are super-duper special, made from unobtainium and designed just for hemp.

Posted Image

I think it's called the "buy Big Mike a new sports car" line. :D:

In real life cannabis is merely a plant like any other plant, it merely produce a few chemicals which we find useful and/or fun. The thing is though 3/4 of the drugs on the market today, scrip and OTC are naturally derived. It's special just like all the other plants. So let's treat it like a plant and not like a marketing concept.

You have nutrients then everything else. Nutrients are what the plant actually uses as food to survive and grow, everything else, like molasses, kelp extract etc are supplements. A plant can thrive without the use of supplements though they are useful for improving the plants performance.

The three most important nutrients we get from the air and water, they are carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, all the other nutrients are minerals usually taken up through the roots from the soil. The first three are nitrogen, phophorous and potassium. The plant uses a lot of these three as they are major building blocks.

Next are the three secondary nutrients calcium, magnesium and sulfur. These are the next most used elements though is some cases, like tomatoes, calcium is used more than NPK.

The last nutrients are the essential micro-nutrients, boron, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum and zinc. These are only needed in very small amounts but are important for plant well-being.

You also have beneficial nutrients like silicon which can improve the plant.

OK, so here is what we're going to use, first Peters Professional Hydro-sol 5-11-26. http://customhydronu...njoqeub90c20525 This will mostly supply all the needed nutes except for nitrogen which will be added separately. The Peters formula has been around for a long time and is considered the standard vegging formula by the commercial hydroponics growers who do flowers and vegetables for a living.

Next up is our nitrogen and also calcium. Calcium nitrate 15.5-0-0+Ca http://customhydronu...njoqeub90c20525 is pretty much also industry standard.

Almost there, our last nutrient is mono-potassium phosphate also called MKP 0-52-34 http://customhydronu...njoqeub90c20525 this will only be used during the later part of flowering as a bloom booster.

Golly gee whiz let's see, 4 pounds of Hydro-sol, 4 pounds of calcium nitrate and 1 pound of MKP. So far we've spent $26.00 on enough ferts for many, many grows. I know! Let's splurge and get that beneficial nutrient I mentioned earlier, silicon. Potassium silicate http://customhydronu...njoqeub90c20525 is about the only way to get an easily dissolved form of silicon. Silicon helps to strengthen the plant, improve drought tolerance and increase insect resistance. Not bad at $12.00 a pound.

So altogether you've spent $38.00 in nutes plus $12-$15 shipping for at least a years worth of ferts with the added bonus of a lot of flexibility during growth. I'm sorry that you won't have a giant bottle collection though. :salute:

In the next part I will tell you how to mix and match nutes to get the best out of your plant all during all stages of growth, so stay tuned. ;)
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#2 Bueller

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:20 PM

KD... For the sake of discussion and information, how much would that line up of jugs set a person back.... If he/she could pick it up without shipping or tax... Great study!! Pete
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#3 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 04:27 PM

KD...

For the sake of discussion and information, how much would that line up of jugs set a person back....

If he/she could pick it up without shipping or tax...

Great study!!

Pete


$800+ :D: ;)
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#4 PoeticLife

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:19 PM

I'm listening and so is my debit card........... its ease of use for me... so will stick around and see what else is coming! great thread!! thanks
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#5 GeeGee

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:23 PM

I love this thread Great stuff man
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#6 Turf

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 05:35 PM

thank god for a real freeking fertilizer label....Posted Image





Posted Image
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#7 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 06:51 PM

Part-2 Alrighty then, let's mix up some ferts and figure out how to feed it. First thing to notice is all the nutes I told you about are dry salts, one of the worst things about all the nutes out today is they are nearly all liquids, I can see no good reason to put 1 or 2 pounds of nutes in 8 pounds (one gallon) of water then pay to ship it across country. If you buy from a hydro store your still paying for the shipping in the price and the nutes mixed in are still over-priced. Don't get me wrong liquid concentrate is the easiest way to use nutes and that's the way we're going to mix it. Your going to need 3 gallons of distilled water ( 4 gallons if you got the silicon). You will also need a scale that can weigh at least 1 pound (454 grams) with a 1 gram accuracy. The first thing to do is weigh out 2 pounds each of Hydro-sol and calnit. Put the unused ferts in ziplock bags to keep the ferts dry as possible. You will need a 5 quart bowl and a kitchen spoon. First heat 1 gallon of water to about 130-140F degrees, the put the water in the bowl. Now slowly mix in the fertilizer while stirring it in, after it cools a bit put it back into a gallon jug. After both the Hydro-sol and calnit done do the same thing to the 1 pound of MKP except you only use a half gallon of water. For the potassium silicate you use only 1/2 pound per gallon. Now comes the fun part-feeding :devil: :D You'll need a couple of things you can get locally first epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) and molasses, you can get both at Wally World. :D Use the silicon at 1/2 tsp per gallon till the end of stretch. Always add it to the mix it first. I set up the mixture so all you really need is kitchen measuring spoons, 1 tsp=5ml The standard full dose for Hydro-sol and calnit is 3 grams each per gallon, I've set up so 2 1/4 tsp per gallon each out of my two magical juice bottles is a full dose. Seedling/clone stage first two feeding of nutes should be half-strength mix of Hydro-sol with no calnit, third feeding add half strength calnit. Test feed the plant full strength and watch for nute burn and back off if needed. Veg state should be running full strength Hydro-sol, calnit should be at least 3/4 strength and don't be afraid to bump it up till it tries to burn then back off. The flip,the feeding before you flip cut the calnit in half, a low N is a flower signal to the plant. Feed it a second time and flip it. Feed it one more time at low N then kick the calnit back up through the stretch so it'll have plenty fuel. As soon as stretch is mostly done reduce the calnit back 1 tsp and increase the Hydro-sol to 2 1/2 tsp per gallon. One week after stretch ends start adding 1 tsp MKP. A month after the end of stretch reduce the Hydro-sol to two tsp and use 2 tsp MKP, use this till flush. Last feeding before flush no calnit, 1/2 tsp Hydro-sol and 1/2 MKP then clear water till harvest. Now let the confusion begin. GAAAAsmiley.gif spineysmilie.gif
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#8 OniusOniusOnius

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:27 PM

Advanced is WAY overpriced and I think it's really cool how KD's showing people a functional and super cheap alternative to these hydro store products. Nutrients programs like this are what most people need to make happy healthy plants with little money or confusion. That being said I would like to play a little Devil's advocate here ;)

The formula you're describing doesn't use hormones, vitamins, enzymes, or biologicals. These components have been shown, when used in a specific/precise manner, to greatly speed cell division/growth. Changes in growth are particularly noticeable if used early in a plant's life because the growth increase is somewhat exponential. The formula/formulas like the one that KD describes are straight out of the 80's/90's research (mainly discoveries in chelates/absorption of elements). Plant science hasn't slowed down a bit since then, if anything we're learning more than we can process. Here's some links I found to help point people on the right research direction.

From: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100127104902.htm"
"they showed that two proteins that are crucial for embryo development also play a critical role in root branching. These results could be used to raise plants that are fast-growing even in dry and nutrient-poor soils."

From: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080812100327.htm
--- "... scientists have now proven that strigolactones, as hormones, are also crucial for the branching of plants. ... Strigolactones are of major importance to the interaction between plants and symbiotic fungi ..."

Also on Strigolactones: http://pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/7/1091.full

From: http://www.scienceda...81216104319.htm
"... Surprisingly, this new model on root architecture is reminiscent of the way leaves develop around growing tips in plant – a key feature of shoot architecture. This is exciting because it suggests that a deep connection exists between both root and shoot architectures – which have hitherto been viewed upon as being entirely separate..."

From: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081214191012.htm
"...What the model showed was very surprising: auxin is not delivered to root hair cells directly, but via the cells next door which act as canals through which the auxin is transported. During transport, some of the auxin leaks out, supplying hair cells with the auxin signal to grow. This new understanding will be crucial in helping farmers to produce food sustainably and to reduce fertiliser waste, which can cause severe damage to ecosystems..."

From: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081208180238.htm
"Scientists have discovered that plant roots can sense UV-B light and have identified a specific gene that is a vital player in UV-B signaling, the communication between cells..."

As crazy as it may sound to an old school functional NPK user, if these AN nutes are used by someone who knows what they are doing they can do things like speed up root growth, which will in turn speed up plant growth, which will lead to more biomass (yield) in a shorter time. Not magic... just a fact that certain hormones cause roots to grow faster, and other chemicals speed cell division. If you run side by sides (and know what you are doing) you will see a difference.

That being said... the "difference" is probably not worth the increase in cost for most gardeners... so AN sucks :D:

Edited by OniusOniusOnius, 02 November 2011 - 09:28 PM.

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#9 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 09:58 PM

That's why I split supplements out, they are a whole nother ballgame. If you can get your nutes right you can make good use of add-ons but the nutes have to work right first. I'll probably do an article on supplements but there is a lot of snake oil out there.
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#10 OniusOniusOnius

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 10:28 PM

KD,
"That's why I split supplements out, they are a whole nother ballgame. If you can get your nutes right you can make good use of add-ons but the nutes have to work right first... but there is a lot of snake oil out there.


Couldn't agree more bro :D:
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#11 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 12:48 PM

I should mention that you can do all of this by watching the plants adjusting by eyeball but a ppm meter like this http://www.eseasonge...igitaltds3.html can make your life easier.
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#12 deke22

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:01 PM

great info KD, i will be using this when my bio bizz runs out, as i got the nutes with my grow kit, an i,ve only got enough for this last grow, so all that info is very,very handy, thanks KD your a champion dude, peace ;-}_,
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#13 KaK

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:22 PM

very nice... me and peters are old friends... need to revist him again... thanks KD very good info.... takes me back... but ur right very good fert used to be all i used ... KaK
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#14 Dudz

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 03:27 PM

Making your own is the only way to go! I do the same thing but with organics. Costs a fraction of bottled nutes. :)

Edited by Dudz, 06 February 2012 - 03:28 PM.

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#15 PoeticLife

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:53 PM

thanks for all the work it took to put it together! you've already saved me $ with shortcuts like the sludge remover and good old molasses .... but this will take alot more reading (repeatedly)... can this be used with coco? gracias!
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#16 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:59 PM

thanks for all the work it took to put it together! you've already saved me $ with shortcuts like the sludge remover and good old molasses .... but this will take alot more reading (repeatedly)... can this be used with coco?

gracias!


Hmmm... missed this one sorry Poet. Nutrients can be used hydro, soilless (coco or sphagnum peat) or soil. The only difference is when and how much you feed plus with new coco it's a good idea to pre-soak with a mix of half strength nutes and a 1/4 tsp of epsom salts per gallon of pHed soak water to prevent a skewed CEC (cation exchange capacity) which can cause some strange nutrients deficiencies.
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#17 Desiderata

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 02:36 PM

I think I'm ready to try this, KD. It's time to buy our FF and just one of the bottles of stuff is over $20.00, and all together I'm looking at about $80.00 for everything. It doesn't seem like much compared to the $800.00 for the 'unobtainium'~ I still don't know what I'm doing, but I know with the help of everybody here I'll be well educated soon. I'll be growing in an organic soil medium that I used for my last Qosmos grow. Ace may be using a hempy bucket again and I'd love to get him to use a method like this. Heck, the money saved can buy my carbon filters, lights, fans and more! Thanks for the great thread KD!
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#18 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 02:47 PM

Desi you'll find going my route will buy you a lot more nutrients for the money. If you need any help you know where to find me. :D
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#19 Desiderata

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:16 PM

Desi you'll find going my route will buy you a lot more nutrients for the money. If you need any help you know where to find me. :D


Oh, I know I'll need you! Right now we're just popping some seeds and have a bit of FF. I'll have this all together in a week or so, but will it be alright to go from the FF to your nutes without any shock to the plants?
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#20 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:40 PM

Nope, won't cause any problems, you'll just start off light and work up.
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#21 Dudz

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:16 PM

Heck, the money saved can buy my carbon filters....

Thanks for the great thread KD!


You could also build your own carbon filter, or cut your existing one open and repack it with new activated carbon. Just gotta re-rivet it back together (or drill and add screws). Saves $$$$$
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#22 Awakenconcious

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 08:52 PM

Great post KD! Thanks for the info as always.
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#23 xxPeacePipexx

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 09:20 PM

LMFAO , KD you have no chance at working for Bush Beans or Advanced now hahah Letting the secret out my man .. I used Peters , epsoms and wood ash ect about 20 years ago for my Hydro setup. I get Maxi grow/Bloom for the same cost in bulk at wholesale price , but I would use Peters again with no shrug. Sure is nice to understand it all and not be victimized by such , especially the Advanced side , sure some of it too has some beneficial potential . If you look and cross compare like a smart grower does youll find all the same supps that advanced offersare sold as well by another manufacturer at half the cost or less .. PPS
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#24 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 17 February 2012 - 11:33 PM

LMFAO , KD you have no chance at working for Bush Beans or Advanced now hahah Letting the secret out my man ..
I used Peters , epsoms and wood ash ect about 20 years ago for my Hydro setup. I get Maxi grow/Bloom for the same cost in bulk at wholesale price , but I would use Peters again with no shrug.

Sure is nice to understand it all and not be victimized by such , especially the Advanced side , sure some of it too has some beneficial potential . If you look and cross compare like a smart grower does youll find all the same supps that advanced offersare sold as well by another manufacturer at half the cost or less .. PPS


Not working for Amway Nutrients? That would break my heart. :D There's nothing hard about a good nutrient program, just a little commonsense and understanding what a plant really needs. Universities full of smart people have studied it all for decades and wild promises about over-priced foo foo juice in colorful bottles ain't it. An understanding of what plants need is the basis of a good grow and whether you go organic or synthetic getting what the plant wants doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg.
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#25 Desiderata

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Posted 18 February 2012 - 08:54 AM

I like the idea knowing what the plant needs in every stage of it's life. To me, that will be a well rounded education that didn't take a million dollars of tuition!
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