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#26 brock 1

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 05:35 AM

hey my friend so glad your back! well Brock you might as well start with selection. as lots of peps just use what they have and dont know about what to look for just throwing whatever they have in there room together. so i think that would be a gr8 place for ya to start. glad your back bro!


sorry it took so long kak. i think were ready for some selection now that we have covered conserving a strain a little. :)

now what do people have to look for in a strain when it comes to selection? well it can be anything that the person likes in a strain or even everything within a strain to conserve the strain for the future. now lets look at a few of the things most people select for when breeding. effect of the plant when used as medicine, looks yes its true i know its not the most important but some people do breed for a plant that looks good things like purple colour bud's, stems, leafs, pistils, auto flowering, size, yield, THC, CBD, ect ect. its all about breeding a strain that suits your needs not others. :)

now when we find 2 plants with traits we want to breed into a strain how do we go about it? well that's not really a simple question to answer because there's so Meany ways to do it and just about all have there pro's and con's. one of the simplest is to simply make a F1 population from the 2 plant. making F1's is simply a case of crossing 2 different strain to make seeds. these seed's are known as the F1 population. now not all F1's are the same depending on the selection done already on the 2 parent plant F1's can have lots of genotypes and phenotypes and not give a uniform crop. some people believe its always best to breed F1's from ibl (inbreed backcrossed line) or il (inbreed line). breeding from inbreed plants will give a more uniform population in the F1 seeds. the reason for this is genetic load the genetic load of 2 F1 parent plants will be bigger then that of 2 inbreed parent. there for more genes to show through in the F1 population seen by the eye as pheno's and geno's.

i will be back soon to discuss the proses used after we have the F1 generation from the 2 parent plant. also it will explain locking down the traits by inbreeding for these that only want to make a F1 population from 2 ibl or il for uniform F1's. i didn't explain that first because it something that we have to discuss next so i didn't see the point in covering it twice. :animbong:
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#27 OrangeSkunk

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 05:29 PM

wow so much excellent info brock, thanks for the paper on genetic load too. im totally thirsty for this kind of knowledge! thanks!
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#28 nelly

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 06:19 PM

This is sumthing i've started wanting to have ago at niceone. nelly
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#29 CAMSTER626

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 08:18 PM

Awesome thread brock...I look forward to learning more about breeding better herb. Thanks CAM-
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#30 brock 1

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 04:22 AM

wow so much excellent info brock, thanks for the paper on genetic load too. im totally thirsty for this kind of knowledge! thanks!


i will sort some more useful links out later. i was just going to post the odd one now and then but since you like them so much i will sort a few useful ones out soon. :eek:
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#31 KaK

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 07:23 AM

very nice bro keep up the knowledge!
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#32 OrangeSkunk

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 10:24 AM

hey brock, im having trouble understanding some of the concepts. sorry this is my first attempt at biology really. genetic load, is this the balance of genotypes? eg. an IBL should pretty much have a uniform genotype ?? after selection and creation of the f1, we will probably see the balance change... something similar to mendels stuff. this is where it gets confusing for me, what is a "negative load" or (im guessing) a "positive load"? so the paper is about a hybrids ability to persist in a population? i guess the question might be are we creating weaker plants though crossing and backcrossing?
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#33 intensive

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 10:40 AM

just found this thread again, great information!
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#34 brock 1

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 03:22 AM

hey brock, im having trouble understanding some of the concepts. sorry this is my first attempt at biology really.

genetic load, is this the balance of genotypes?
eg. an IBL should pretty much have a uniform genotype

?? after selection and creation of the f1, we will probably see the balance change... something similar to mendels stuff.

this is where it gets confusing for me,

what is a "negative load" or (im guessing) a "positive load"?

so the paper is about a hybrids ability to persist in a population?

i guess the question might be are we creating weaker plants though crossing and backcrossing?




i will be back later to explain it for you. i have to take the kids to school so breeding school will have to wait a bit. GPwelcome.gif
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#35 kittypup

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 05:26 AM

Awesome Thread Brock... thank you very much. Lots of great info here!!!
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#36 brock 1

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 02:46 PM

OK before i get to your question OS i will just share a few links here about Luther Burbank enjoy them. i got them from a friend on another site but i don't think he will mind at all if i share them here as well.

vol 1

vol 2

vol 3

vol 4

vol 5

Edited by brock 1, 16 March 2011 - 02:48 PM.

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#37 brock 1

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 02:52 PM

vol 6

vol 7

vol 8

vol 9

just a bit of reading for you all enjoy. muahaha
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#38 brock 1

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 03:35 PM

hey brock, im having trouble understanding some of the concepts. sorry this is my first attempt at biology really.

genetic load, is this the balance of genotypes?
eg. an IBL should pretty much have a uniform genotype

?? after selection and creation of the f1, we will probably see the balance change... something similar to mendels stuff.

this is where it gets confusing for me,

what is a "negative load" or (im guessing) a "positive load"?

so the paper is about a hybrids ability to persist in a population?

i guess the question might be are we creating weaker plants though crossing and backcrossing?


sorry it took so long to answer your question OS genetic load is the number of different genes in a population. genotype is the expression of these gene's. so no mate it's not the same. if you think genes can express there self's to the eye from groups not just single gene's. just think of how i showed how plant colour can be because of more than 1 gene but it will be expressed as 1 genotype for a example. muahaha

a negative load would be any genes in the population seen as useless or bad to the plant. a positive load would be gene's considered to be good and beneficial to the plant.

now to answer are we creating weaker plant's through crossing and back crossing. well in the short term you answer is no your improving the plant by eliminating gene's that don't benefit your needs. long term the answer is yes. that's the reason we need to outcross strains. something to discuss later. rasta.nana.gif with every cross we make the number of genes in a population is reduced this can only go on for so long before a population doesn't have enough gene's and need to evolve or die out. google search genetic load in cheaters is a good place to find out more about the bad effect of genetic load in a population. there genetically a mess thanks to man inbreeding them for speed for hunting for thousands of years. its the same principle for all living things. rasta.nana.gif
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#39 OrangeSkunk

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 05:30 AM


continuing on the topic of genetic load and selection ...


ok i thought a genotype was something close to the actual genetic sequence the plant was carrying, from our abstracted level, alles we can observe.
and a phenotype was the expression of those genes in a given environment.

you've defined genetic load as the total number of different genes in a population.

i found this definition of genetic load, which seems to define it as the frequency of the desired genotype.
http://www.blackwell...enetic_load.asp

a population with 0 variation w/respect to the desired genotype would have a load value = 0 (probably in reality some small epsilon)
and a population that is completely varied w/respect to the desired genotype would have a load value = 1

so an IBL, something that breeds true for a desired genotype should have 0 load.

would it be safe to say, that in breeding for a specific gene we are attempting to create a population that contains that gene with 0 load.

maybe we can work with an example?
lets say we found a specific phenotype we want, a female AK-47 (Cherry Pheno) and we want to create a population that has this trait with load=0.

Doing a little research we find that cherry AK-47 trait occurs 1:100 plants. so we can say at the starting point we have real negative load = 0.99

We also learn that AK-47 is NOT an IBL, and we assume the population comes from two distinct parents. (columbia x mexico x thailand x afghanistan)

now how do we go about selecting a father for the first generation of our breeding project.

a) would it be best to start from the existing population (one of its brothers)? even though we know that most of its siblings will not have this trait.
b ) inbreed with its father if its accessible.
c) choose another plant from a population that is known to breed true for a "cherry" fragrance
d) or use a distinct IBL
... i assume there are many more options.

what else can we gather from the info that we have?
is it safe to say given the genetic load this trait seems to be a combination of multiple recessive genes.

can we gather any more info from this 1:100 number, maybe the number of genes involved?

a - would choosing a brother who *looked* most closely to our cherry plant be a better selection since its genotype probably does not deviate far? (guess)
b - atleast we know half of the puzzle is there
c - is it even a guarantee that we got the same terpine profile going on here?
d - maybe this will cause less variation in the next generation

your replies are really quick imo. and im very happy that someone like you can entertain these questions. sorry if im leading the discussion in the wrong direction, i hope my questions seem valid for the topic at hand.

Edited by OrangeSkunk, 17 March 2011 - 05:35 AM.

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#40 brock 1

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 08:23 AM


continuing on the topic of genetic load and selection ...


ok i thought a genotype was something close to the actual genetic sequence the plant was carrying, from our abstracted level, alles we can observe.
and a phenotype was the expression of those genes in a given environment.

you've defined genetic load as the total number of different genes in a population.

i found this definition of genetic load, which seems to define it as the frequency of the desired genotype.
http://www.blackwell...enetic_load.asp

a population with 0 variation w/respect to the desired genotype would have a load value = 0 (probably in reality some small epsilon)
and a population that is completely varied w/respect to the desired genotype would have a load value = 1

so an IBL, something that breeds true for a desired genotype should have 0 load.

would it be safe to say, that in breeding for a specific gene we are attempting to create a population that contains that gene with 0 load.

maybe we can work with an example?
lets say we found a specific phenotype we want, a female AK-47 (Cherry Pheno) and we want to create a population that has this trait with load=0.

Doing a little research we find that cherry AK-47 trait occurs 1:100 plants. so we can say at the starting point we have real negative load = 0.99

We also learn that AK-47 is NOT an IBL, and we assume the population comes from two distinct parents. (columbia x mexico x thailand x afghanistan)

now how do we go about selecting a father for the first generation of our breeding project.

a) would it be best to start from the existing population (one of its brothers)? even though we know that most of its siblings will not have this trait.
b ) inbreed with its father if its accessible.
c) choose another plant from a population that is known to breed true for a "cherry" fragrance
d) or use a distinct IBL
... i assume there are many more options.

what else can we gather from the info that we have?
is it safe to say given the genetic load this trait seems to be a combination of multiple recessive genes.

can we gather any more info from this 1:100 number, maybe the number of genes involved?

a - would choosing a brother who *looked* most closely to our cherry plant be a better selection since its genotype probably does not deviate far? (guess)
b - atleast we know half of the puzzle is there
c - is it even a guarantee that we got the same terpine profile going on here?
d - maybe this will cause less variation in the next generation

your replies are really quick imo. and im very happy that someone like you can entertain these questions. sorry if im leading the discussion in the wrong direction, i hope my questions seem valid for the topic at hand.



as i understand genetic load. you cant get a genetic load of 0 or 1. the reason is simple because you cant have 1 genotype from only 1 gene there as to be lots in every plant we make. leprican.gif now when i say there is more genetic load in a plant then there is geno's the reason is this. some geno's we cant detect with the eye. others need more than 1 gene to express themselves. if this makes sense. now when we create a plant what we do is pass one of each gene from each parent but these aren't the only genes the plant has. offspring from these plant create a back up them self of each of these gene's in case one is damaged or otherwise unable to perform as it was intended. this is believed to be how we can reproduce a trait from a past population from a present plant.

a population as to have a set number of gene's to be what it is and service as what it is. every generation we make without large numbers will have damaged gene's past from the parents reducing the number of workable gene's with in the population. we combat this by back crossing to a previous population's that had the genes in a workable order. otherwise the plant will have to remake a gene to replace it that forms the same function. sometimes its good for us other times its not. this is what is believed to corse evaluation (mutation in the population).

but you do have the principal's right of this. when we breed a new strain we need to bring the genetic load down by elimination of gene's so the geno's we want have a higher expression in the population we create (locking in desirable traits in the breeding population) think of how meany are within a population? when you make F2 there will be a high expression because the recessive genes will show through as well as the dominant one's. also you have ever chance of a few mutations (replacements)commonly seen as thing like flat stems tri's deformed leafs ect the list goes on. sometime the plant gets it right as well and u wouldn't know the difference with you by eye. from this we have to breed for the geno's we desire in the population without damaged genes being expressed. this is why we are best of using a large population. we don't want the genes that express as the trait (traits) we want to be damaged in the breeding process. if we do we lose all the work we have done so far and need to back cross to re introduce the trait in the population. genetic mutation is what we are fighting when we breed. it's something we cant really stop but we can slow it down.

well let me share something here mutation scares most breeder's because they all want people to buy that they pay for. for the hobby breeder mutations can be fun things to play with after all it's not preservation it's breeding. however we need preservation because any time we mess up we need old lines to save hower neck's by correcting the problem we made by reintroducing the gene's we changed. :)

here is a few examples of what happens when the genetic load of a population gets to low and mutation happens to a population. :fly:

Attached Files


Edited by brock 1, 17 March 2011 - 09:00 AM.

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#41 brock 1

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 08:31 AM

the first pic is a flat stem trait and the second is just a pic of the same plant. pic 3 is a leaf on a leaf. 4 a self topping none auto. 5 well no one seems to know? 6 a self topping auto flower plant. 7 random arm growth. none of these traits were past from the parents through selection of dominant genes. there just mutations created from the offspring. fun stuff imo when it comes to breeding and the traits you can get are unlimited with evaluation or mutation as it truly known. leprican.gif :fly: PS OS your defo top of the class so far mate :) and thanks for the link :coolpunk:

Edited by brock 1, 18 March 2011 - 06:01 AM.

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#42 OrangeSkunk

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 08:52 AM

hi brock.

thanks for the materials, i'm finding burbank to be pretty interesting, at least the first book really changes my perspective about whats going on generation to generation.
that a species has locked away a lot of genetic code to ensure its survival when necessary....


the idea of "total" genes is a little weird for me still,

so a gene is something that codes for something. eg. synthesis of a protein, or the passing of genetic information.
for a new gene to enter, i assume it becomes necessary for an old one to go... (???)

example: forcing a plant to have a gene that makes it resistant to pesticides.
from my understanding this is done in bioengineering through using a virus to inject the genetic code into the dna... but does that necessarily remove another gene?

in nature i assume the same to happen, either through viral infection, a gene may enter. or through mutation (we need to talk more about this). or through selection... (which i feel to be pretty well covered now)

so the traits in the photos...
are they a result of selection or mutation? are these genes the plant had hidden all along?
if so why was it beneficial to its survival and why is it displaying now?
is it just a weird combination of recessive genes?

can we take a small step backwards and discuss what exactly is dominance?
does dominance actually mask a recessive gene completely? (how often does complete dominance occur in cannabis)
can a gene be made to be more dominant?
is dominance directly tied to the environment? (maybe a gene is only dominant in a given environment)

some good info here: http://en.wikipedia....i/Dominant_gene
answers a few of my own questions, but i figure id bring them up anyway.

i think we should learn more about dominant and recessive expression,
then mutation. and broken or dead genes.

thanks again brock!
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#43 brock 1

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Posted 24 March 2011 - 07:43 AM

a gene can be compared to a little factory (only one of Meany) in these factories there is 2 main tasks performed. fist is as you said. is to make new proteins. second is to make more factory's. so to ensure that when a factory is spent and no longer able to make enough proteins. another new factory can take its place keeping up with the need of the plant or animal it has to supply. now lets explain how it work in regard to phenotype. these factories or (gene) aren't made to produce every thing perfect but to make them to a high standard. now if you look at pheno's as a factory within the plant that say makes a certain green protein that effects the colour on the stem of a plant. all the protein made are not made perfect and mixed exact. so from ever factory you will get a few shades of green. that's without any mess ups which cant-be recalled. this give the factory the ability to if need be make more darker shade or lighter shades when needed. so this is how a plant that changes environment can change appearance. a example would be when we shock a plant by putting it outside and it starts making red on it stem because of a environmental change. the factory is still the same only the mix made will change within the protein made because its better for the plant survival. now what is a dominant trait? simply a trait that is dominant with in a population. be to the result of environment. be it the result of mutation. or selection by a friend man or any other living thing or GM natural or other. now what happens when GM happens is this. a gene is selected first be it by man or a natural one. this gene is in most modern GMing combined with a bacteria (i cant remember the name of my head but can find out if its important) this Bactria infects the plant or any thing for that matter. the affect of this is gene replace themselves with the infected gene instead of there own. think of the factory making new factory's. any new factory instead of making green protein can be made to make any colour the new gene makes. the picture's i cant really say weather it a trait lost in the past or a new one. without first knowing the traits the cannabis had in the past. as you know cannabis past isn't as known as most other plant varieties. this isn't as important to me as weather it a practical benefit change to the plant or knot. Hug Smiley

Edited by brock 1, 24 March 2011 - 07:48 AM.

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