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Breeding School


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#1 brock 1

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 07:27 AM

so i find a lot off people want to breed but just don't seem to understand how it works. here we will study how breeding work right down to a genetic level. don't worry we will start at the basics right from the beginning. i know i am not the best person to do this but someone has to. anyway first lesson genes and how there passed from parent's to there young. if you have anything to ad please feel free were all still learning and we could all benefit from more teacher's feeding hower brains with useful info here. :)

here is a bit of info on the basic history of gene's enjoy your first lesson. My link
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#2 GeeGee

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 07:58 AM

Cool for taking the initiative Brock! We have many good breeders at GP but you are the one taking the step forward! Thanks! PD: Will check out the link!
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#3 KaK

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 10:06 AM

nice brock very good idea keep it up bro :woohoo:
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#4 KnuckleDragger

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 11:03 AM

The basics of breeding are a good thing to know about even if you never breed yourself. Good idea and I'm sure you'll have help explaining things if you need it.
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#5 intensive

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 10:46 AM

i read the article and its pretty basic but also very helpfull. thank you for posting another thing i learnded about breading : if you take two completely different strains(in bred lines) and crossed them you will get a very common mixture of both plants (distinct phenos) but it you take two of the f2's of a strain and bread them. you can have a wide array of different pheno's showing there heads! i always thought that if you took f2's and bred them, they would still carry the same dominant and recessive genes and keep the same phenotypes but i was wrong! thats why good breaders are worth there weight in gold! *cough*subcool*cough* lol
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#6 brock 1

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:52 AM

i read the article and its pretty basic but also very helpfull. thank you for posting

another thing i learnded about breading : if you take two completely different strains(in bred lines) and crossed them you will get a very common mixture of both plants (distinct phenos) but it you take two of the f2's of a strain and bread them. you can have a wide array of different pheno's showing there heads!


i always thought that if you took f2's and bred them, they would still carry the same dominant and recessive genes and keep the same phenotypes but i was wrong! thats why good breaders are worth there weight in gold! *cough*subcool*cough* lol


that's a very good and interesting observation intensive. i think its something we all need to understand so i will be trying to explain this later. just to explain your f1 aren't identical at a genetic level and even f1 will have variations to pass on genetically. for example my first experiment with breeding was a ilb of skunk and a land race swazi i got 25% looking like there father genetically (swazi)and 25% the (ibl skunk) mother and 50% were a mix on average. anyway that's for another time. selection is the most important thing in breeding and subcool certainly seems to have the knack of that. i think were going to get into some interesting conversation as this thread goes on that's for sure.

Edited by brock 1, 13 December 2010 - 10:54 AM.

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#7 intensive

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 12:40 PM

so, whats our next topic of breeding to discuss? i want to edjewmucate myself 8) how about discussing the recessive'ness of genes after generations and generations? lets say a purple inbred line strain is bred for a couple generations but then a rascally/long winded bee or butterfly comes and pollenates our strain with a completely different inbred line strain of a choco thai. but then the eff'in bee/butterfly dies and never transports foreign genetics into our purple ibl again. how many generations of the purple strain would it take to outbreed the heredity of the choco thai in our gene pool? the purple/choco thai plants would then would cross with the ibl purple males year after year and so on. i know with humans, having much more complex alleles, the re occurance of the traits of our grand parents is still possible but not as likely. another topic completely could be the discussion of the amount of actual inbred lines left? seems everybody is whoring there strains alot lately, and everthing is a crazy hybrid crossed with another. edit* o i just had another question pop into my head, how is a strain a combination of 3 different strains? like how do you do a plant 3 way? lol. And i know you can order alot of strains that are a combination of 3 or 4 crosses, but how can you have any idea of expecting the outcome? they normally tell you the size/amount able to produce/and sativa indica influence. with that many strains, is it even possible to have any idea of what the out come would be? so many dominant/recessive genes being throwin around!

Edited by intensive, 13 December 2010 - 12:55 PM.

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#8 brock 1

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 03:52 PM

sound good to me intensive. so you want to know how to predict the the percentage of genetic pass on from a parent and how to predict it in future generation? i was thinking this would be the best thing to learn next my self so looks like that's what we will learn next then. i will try explaining all your questions at the same time and post the relevant information you need to know. so you know i am not just talking rubbish and it's a scientific answer. i wont post it just yet reason being is i am pretty stoned nothing scientific just more mystical lol. :P

Edited by brock 1, 14 December 2010 - 04:38 PM.

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#9 intensive

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:13 AM

thanks brock, again this is a great thread
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#10 brock 1

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:33 AM

right time for me to try to explain intensive. first of i will explain your 3 trait think first. so we know genes are passed on one gene from each parent like this. A for a dominant gene and a for a none dominant gene or recessive so you cant pass 3 genes on it ether get a dominant gene or recessive. however we can also pass phenotypes on like this.

y=yellow and b=blue

so these genes produce proteins that affect the colour of the plant. plant A is yellow and plant B blue. now we cross them and get some thing like this G and what is G? well G is green how did we get green when plant A give y and plant B give a b gene? because the f1 plants still have both genes and none are dominant. when we pass 1 gene each both can be used still that's why none of the plants are identical unless there identical twins. so to explain this we know gene y is making yellow pigment protein and b blue pigment protein. if nether is overly dominant the plant will express a mix and we get G green wich isn't a gene but a product of 2 genes y and b. if however one of the genes was overly dominant then that would make all the pigment proteins in the plant. if Y and b was mater we would get Y yellow colour in the f1 generation because Y would be making most of the protein and b makes very little if any blue protein at all. so now we cross yb with yb to make F2's and now we get 25% y 25% b and 50% yb or G giving a 1:2:1 ratio in a f2 population now what of the Yb mating F2 population? well it goes like this 75% will be yellow and 25% blue giving a 3:1 ratio. now to answer your question you cant have 3 genes pass a generation. you can get a mixed population of genes mixing though from a 3 was cross because were not just dealing with 2 genes. this is how you can mix traits from 3 or 4 different plants so for example we will take Yb mating so we know were passing on y bit what of the other genes the parents have? well were not getting all dominant genes from the plant with the y gene it might also have a lanky gene l and the blue could have a short gene S so the f1 may show the Y but will also show S from the plant with the b gene. so how do we know what will be past from a parent? we don't in most cases but in some we do. how? because we have experience in breeding plant and see crosses in front of hower eyes and know certain genes are dominant like the hermie gene or the green gene because there's more of the trait in shown in most population in the case of green. the fact hermie can be breed into a population in only a few generation and has took thousands to try removing it which we still haven't done tells us it a dominant gene once over the full cannabis population showed it just like hemp. that's one of the reason some people don't like the fem seed trend that's happening now because bad breeding from these fems could make the hermie gene dominant again fast and we wouldn't be able to grow anything without seeds for a long time again. 1 step forward 3 steps back so to speak.


:toking: here is that link as well.My link

hope this helped you understand your question intensive. if not just let me know
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#11 brock 1

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 11:19 AM

so what do people think we should learn next then? genetic mutation? what happens when a genes isn't passed on? any ideas? we must want to understand something better. come one folk don't be scared i want people that don't have a clue to come in on the conversation. these are the people that will benefit most after all. fart.gif sorry intensive i forgot to ad you cant breed a strain back to its original self only similar and it depends on what traits were dominant what you will get back and what you will lose because it been replaced. :toking: that's why fem seeds can be a useful tool if done right yet be a evil nightmare if abused. some say worth the risk others say not but there's always to sides to every story. that's why i want people to understand were they stand breeding with things like fems and auto flowering strain. as most know who have breed auto's its a recessive gene and a good starting block to understand gene pass on. :passit:

Edited by brock 1, 16 December 2010 - 04:50 AM.

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#12 brock 1

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:52 PM

sorry folk but i am having a bit off a bad time at the minute so don't know when i will be back to this thread. i promise i will get back here though. i just got some good news that quickly turned bad and my heads in bits at the moment. i don't think i will be in a mental state to post anything and be able to respond on an useful level right now. sorry again for not keeping the learning coming on a constant flow. i will be back guaranteed. how can i stay away you lot are the nicesr people i have ever had the privilege of speaking to. keep up the good work while i am gone and i hope we can discuss more hopefully soon. when i come back i will try explaining the effects environment has on genes and naybe sexual expression of cannabis. one thing i will say is it will be interesting. lets hope you all don't get to board waiting. all the best brock 1 and i hope you all have a better new year then mine. rotflmaogif
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#13 SandiaMts

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 11:07 AM

Hang in there Brock1! You are in our thoughts! :) Good Karma headed your way :)
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#14 KaK

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Posted 06 January 2011 - 01:42 PM

bummer bro well get your head together and get things straight and well be here for ya! latter bro
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#15 brock 1

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Posted 21 February 2011 - 09:17 AM

OK so i have been having problems but i think i need to continue here to keep my mind occupied. i have been thinking about which direction to bring this thread. i want to go down the XandY path and how it effect plant in breeding. to be honest it can get heated in my experience when u get down to it. so rather than cover this now. i will ask what you lot think. would it be best to cover now? bottle necking, hybrid vigor, or just simple practical simple way to select a plant suitable for breeding, the difference between breeding f1, f2, in breed lines, and land races, any idea? we can cover anything here. i made this thread for that very purpose if we don't understand we shall find out or try Howe hardest to.
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#16 KaK

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Posted 22 February 2011 - 07:57 AM

hey my friend so glad your back! well Brock you might as well start with selection. as lots of peps just use what they have and dont know about what to look for just throwing whatever they have in there room together. so i think that would be a gr8 place for ya to start. glad your back bro!
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#17 brock 1

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 07:31 AM

hey my friend so glad your back! well Brock you might as well start with selection. as lots of peps just use what they have and dont know about what to look for just throwing whatever they have in there room together. so i think that would be a gr8 place for ya to start. glad your back bro!


sound like a plan to me kak mate. its really nice to be back amongst friends. so we shall get to selection and how to breed for selection using different methods s1's line breeding even open pollination ect. i have a few thing's i need to do first but i will be back soon. hopefully tonight to explain breeding for a selection of traits. i will also try explaining the difference between each method and how they each can have benefit and disadvantage's in a understandable way. i hope rotflmaogif
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#18 ileso

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 08:11 AM

great thread dudes
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#19 OrangeSkunk

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 09:54 AM

yes selection interests me a lot. it seems to me that some *real* breeders, soma for example will actually choose multiple males for pollination. he says it is to increase genetic depth, ie. more variation. in Organic MJ Soma Style, Soma explains that in creating NYC Diesel, he sprouted 6 seeds got 3 Males and used 2 -- 1 with tight node spacing and 1 stretchier plant. he then made his selections from the results. so selection, in some cases might be to preserve as much genetic depth as possible... which might be important if the genetics you are working for are unknown or truly the last of its kinds. eg. the G13 x Haze was the only seed from an old lot that sprouted, and he ended up getting crossed with everything. i think selection occurs when you are ready to start fixing particular traits... and we might know some of these things right away... like floral cluster formation, more trichs, closer nodes, smell, late male flowers, hollow stems, root formation ... I am ready to make my first batch of seeds. my breeding goal is to simply preserve the current genetics in my garden so i can take a little vacay rotflmaogif i have 3 males to work with and about 10 varieties on the female side. 2 Males are BOG Sweet Cindy ... these phenotypes look very similar in plant structure. im still smelling them otherwise. 1 Male is BOG Sour Lifesaver BOG Sweet Cindy is Bogglegum x (Sweettooth #3 x Cinderella 99) this seems like a cross between 3 IBLs (pretty much) Bogglegum is a bubblegum x bubble gum f1 Sweettooth is Grapefruit x Blueberry crossed with itself a bunch of times Cinderella 99 is a special Haze/Skunk cross that seems to be an IBL since its been cubed. of the 6 seeds i sprouted i found all of them to be very uniform. which either means my starting pool is too small (sure 6 is nothing) and/or Sweet Cindy is closer to a true a hybrid. So unless I find a really good reason to choose between the two Males, I'm probably going to just use both and try to map out what each males genotype truly is by watching its f2 offspring. keeping good records and hopefully have enough viable pollen to use again. There is the case that both males will suck. But I kind of doubt it. The Sour Lifesaver, is Bogglegum bx3 x Lifesaver (bogglegum x jacks cleaner blueberry) I do not have any females, the clone i was given turned male... and i am just trying to make the best of him. with all that said, I plan on just using all 3 males unless there is a good reason not to. which may be simply, time and space. having to test out 3 x 10 strains = 30 crosses... the whole breeding thing is what is currently occupying my mental space so this forum is really cool for me. so here are a few more questions on selection. 1) w/o a true breeding goal in mind wouldn't variation always outweigh making that perfect cross between two parents? 2) is it dangerous to use these hybrids with long inbred lineages who might carry undesirable recessive traits? 3) if each parents genetics can be traced to a distinct IBL does it make it more *safe* to cross into hybrids. ie. each plants makeup does not have a repeat parent in its genetic makeup. 4) what happens if several generations back, a plant had similar parentage. eg. i have a really beautiful lifesaver plant ... but if i were to cross either female to it i would have the following issue: sour lifesaver x lifesaver (bogglegum bx3 x lifesaver) x lifesaver ... sweet cindy x lifesaver (bogglegum x (c99 x swt#3)) x (bogglegum x jcb) theres just a whole lot of bogglegum going on if i cross any of bogs stuff back together.... and theres a little blueberry hiding everywhere. another example: say i cross, sweet cindy x plushberry (bogglegum x (c99 x swt#3)) x (c99 x romulan) x (blackcherry soda) will i encounter some recessiveness from having two c99s in that listing? or since c99 is basically stabilized does it become less problematic? ... im just gonna try it and see what happens. sorry for the long post, hope someone can shed some light on my burning questions.
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#20 NHMI

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Posted 23 February 2011 - 11:23 AM

This is a great thread! I just pollinated a bunch of things with double fun x anesthesia, since it was all I had for male pollen, hopefully it is a decent plant cuz I pollinated AK, 1024 and a few other things with it...got 3 more 1024's so I was hoping to use a male to pollinate a new 1024..we will see. I see two of my plants have purple centers, one is really dark and the other more pink so I will seed both and hopefully I can get a pink or purple male and a female of both to seed...they are NY diesel x blueberry and I have 2 anesthesia x blueberry so I may have a male out of them too, not sure if they are going to be pink or purple yet though... Have you done the C99 before? If so, is it strong & good flavor? I just started one that was a freebie and never tried but was thinking about whether to keep as a mom or to just flower it...
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#21 brock 1

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 07:04 AM

orange skunk the reason its best to use large numbers when making a strain or conserving one is because of bottlenecking the gene pool. genes aren't alway past on in perfect condition. if a broken gene is past from one parent. then the other parent with the good gene will be made dominant by the plant even if it not a dominant gene. so the faulty gene can still be past on without seeing it in the offspring your breeding from because it seems fine to the eye. if your breeding form 2 of these plant and they pass on the faulty gene it can only express the faulty gene. its not a big problem with a large gene pools you can just kill any plant that have carried the gene or a trait linked to the faulty gene. if you keep records you can totally eliminating the plants that carry the faulty gene. if you breeding 1:1 then all your plants have the faulty gene and the full population are carriers of the gene so eliminating is going to be a big problem. this is a big problem with 1:1 mating in the long run.1:1 mating gives a uniform population but cant mend its genes by selection because there isn't a selection there anymore. losing the entire population in one generation can happen. now i will explain your question as best i can. 1. a breeding plan isn't something you really need if i am 100% honest but its best to have one. the reason people have them is so there not breeding and having to grow plants they don't want. for example if you get a sativa plant pop up in a population and only have a small grow space why would you want to keep breeding it? or a plant that tastes terrible and you don't even want to use it? that's all a breeding plan is finding 2 parents that have the traits you want then breed them together and only breed from the plants that have the traits you want. 2. a none dominant trait is just that none dominant. if it dose pop back up it will be in small numbers and easy to eliminate. now let's explain something quickly with regard to some of these traits i think your referring to it not just a case of a recessive gene being past on for example. a Hermie trait can be a problem past on genetically or a environmental problem can cause a damaged x or y creating a Hermie as you would get from chemically changing a plants sex which is different to a plant that Hermies on its own. this is a complicated thing to explain but the sex chromosomes are linked to genes in the plants themselves so it can be a total different gene that's affecting a Hermie problem or the x or y its self. its something we can talk about later it also happens with other linked traits but i feel things will be advancing to fast if we talk about these things right now and leave people behind. so we will stick to the basics right now. 3.that depends on what your wanting from the seeds you make? if your wanting a plant that has mostly for example say afghan then use plant that are afghans or mostly afghan. same goes for most strains. its not a problem at all in breeding a out cross is used to improve a line in truth what you get is a totally different strain which you then breed to plants that lean to the original strain or not. to give a example look at bulldogs today and from 100 year ago both bulldogs but not the same dog. same can be said about Thia's, afghans ect the genes are changing with in these plant and it all falls down to. eradication of crops and seed collectors who think there doing some good by giving Lr farmer there now crosses which get crossed to the Lr strain and eliminate the true old lr's. making only the seed collector the person with the Lr in true form. well the way things are going they will have a patentable Lr strain and all people breeding from these strain will have to pay for the right to breed from them or any of there hybrids. sad but true it's the people that we think are bringing us the best wild strain that are taking them from us mostly big seed company's. out crossing is a problem more to do with conserving Lr strains then strain that are heavily hybridised anyway. 4.it would depend on the selection work that has been done. if you cross a plant with blueberry then select the none blueberry phenos to inbreed then cross back to the blueberry. you could select just the same giving you offspring that can be less than 1/2 blueberry just because of the selection of none blueberry offspring. you can have plants that breed near true to the blueberry if you select for blueberry phenos to breed its all a case of selection in breeding. a new strain is added only to ad a trait that can be selected that's not already there or to make a recessive trait dominant faster. hope this helps you with your breeding and i hope you produce something special in the seeds you make orange skunk. PS sorry i didn't get straight back the other day i have been juggling my crops from one place to the next. security's been a big problem at the minute so its been taking all my time keeping my crops safe. i have also been preparing for a large crop in the near future. hopefully all going well. drums.gif the outdoor seasons just around the corner and there doesnt seem to be enough minutes in a week never mind a day. :P but i am getting there and its keeping my mind from other problem i have been having so its all good. :D
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#22 brock 1

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 01:17 PM

OK as a lot of people start by wondering what way is the best for them to start breeding i think this link will be of help. it explains genetic load. something very important to the future of all living things. probably the most important reading for anyone wanting to preserve a gene pool. :rolleyes:

info on genetic load.

Edited by brock 1, 13 March 2011 - 01:18 PM.

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#23 GeeGee

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 01:55 PM

very good info on that link Brock!
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#24 brock 1

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 02:55 PM

very good info on that link Brock!


thanks GeeGee. i just wrote a post explaining why genetic load is important to the gene pool. unfortunately my Internet disconnected and i lost it. :rolleyes: i will re wright it later and try simplifying what it is and it importance. when i have more time. :bong:
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#25 brock 1

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Posted 13 March 2011 - 04:12 PM

genetic load is simply the amount of genes in a species. by selecting when we breed we reduce the genetic load within the species. the result of this is called bottle necking. so as a example if say we started with 2000 gene just as a example in a strain then selected all the good traits we want and eliminated the undesirable one. all the undesirable traits will be eliminated from the gene pool over time by selection in the breeding program. this is pretty much what we do when breeding new strains. eliminating bad genes and breeding only for good ones. the problem with this is we don't understand how all the genes work in cannabis. so we are effectively removing good genes from the gene pool without even realising it in some cases. now removing genes from a gene pool isn't always a bad thing sometimes it has a good effect on the gene pool but it still bottle necking the gene pool. so its not really conserving the gene pool. once we lose genes from the gene pool of a species we cant just magical replace them that's why conserving old land race strains in so important. also reducing the genes in the entire population of a species can have bad genetic effects on the species because of thing like genetic drift ect. now when we produce a great new strain we all hope to keep it around as long as possible in a true pure form. in order to do this we need to conserve all the traits within the strain for as long as possible. to do this we need to slow down the natural bottle necking of the strain from inbreeding. this is achieved by using as Meany plant as possible to preserve all the genes within the population of the strain. the best way of doing this is open pollination. however with open pollination we can also pass on any genetic problems the plant has from any inbreeding already done so selection is still an important process while still using as Meany plants as possible. don't let this put anyone of breeding 1:1 matings using 1 male and 1 female. there's ways around reducing the genetic load that are quit simple. you can simply make enough seeds not to need to make loads of generations. or you could simply keep your mother and father plants around that made the strain. keeping back up seeds around from the parents. just to name a few thing that can make genetic load irrelevant to your breeding program. its more important in conserving old strains to keep genes in the entire gene pool of a species. or if your wanting to make a ibl that will be around for a long time.
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