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What is causing this leaf burn/dying?


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#1 DonJones

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 05:44 PM

I know it is probably something I know and can't place, but ever since I've switched over to separate Waterfarm buckets flowering under moving CMH lights on Holland Secret's 3 part nutrients, I have been having problems on both Permafrost and White Widow strains with the BIG fan leaves starting to turn yellow/brown on the edges, then it begins to spread back from the tip of the leaf. The remainder of the leave is soft and looks healthy but it gradually dies and drys out until I loose the entire leave.

I have been using the same strains, same nutrients and lighting without problems when I was growing in Black Gold. This has just become pronounced in the ones growing the Waterfarms. It happens just about equally whether the media is Hydroton or STG.

Attached is a poor photo of one of the permafrost leaves just beginning to show the dying edges (for a frame of reference the white paper under the leaf is approximately 6.5" wide by 9" tall). The effected leaves on the WW are smaller, as are all of the WW leaves in my grow, but exhibit the same sysptoms as the permafrost at the same stage of development, only with a smaller overall size Please notice that it is mostly showing up on the tips of the little teeth along the edge of the leaf and at the end of the leaf. Then it will gradually spread along the entire edge and eventually start dying from the ends back towards the leaf stem.

The worst effected leaves are not near the top outside of the plant where light burn should be happening. Placing my hand between the plants and the lights at the closest point is not uncomfortable for as long as I can hold my hand there -- usually a minute or two until my arm gets tired.

The remainder of the plant looks healthy and they are actually finishing out significantly faster than they ever did in Black Gold. If I had to hazard a guess, it is only effecting maybe 5% of the fan leaves and then only when they are big (the one in the picture is approximately 7.5" to 8.0" long from the end of the stem to the end of the leaf and maybe a bit wider than that).

Does anyone have any idea what is happening here?

PS: The flower room runs about 75F to maybe 80F when the lights are on, himidity runs in the neighborhood of 40% to 50%. I have a 10" oscillating fan circulating air inside the room and excellent air changes - as close to one exchange per 2 to 3 minutes as I can figure ( the area is ventilated via a 20" box fan sucking through a 20" square hole in the door and intake coming through a 8" X 16" louvered crawl space vent grill drawing from the inside basement air. The basement air is circulated through out the house by the central AC so it shouldn't be stagnet or CO2 depleted air.

Incidentally, our yield looks like it is going to be significantly higher and of a equal quality in less time than in the Black Gold, but it is still early so only time will answer that question.

Any suggestions will be appreciated, even if it is just not to worry about it.


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#2 mediuse

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 05:49 PM

I'm getting this type of damage on my Sweet'N'Low.... Not too sure why though. muA

#3 mickrick

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 05:53 PM

looks like heat stress but you say it's not hot, or the begging of nute burn. sorry thats all i got don hope you get it sorted soon.. mick.

#4 mediuse

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 05:59 PM

I'm in mid winter here...so no, not heat stress. I have been slap-dash in my nutes though...so it could be ph lockout probs for mine...they are also crosses with an AF plant and are showing signs of flowering under 20+ hrs light... so I thought it might be mobile elements being drawn away..IDK... Hope ya find the answer DonJones.. muA

#5 RogueToker

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Posted 12 July 2010 - 09:34 PM

Don on the new growth are the veins lighter or darker or the same as the leave surface? If the same then IMO its just the plant pulling stored nutes. Lighter usually means nitrogen is low, darker to much N

#6 DonJones

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 02:21 AM

RougeToker, I really haven't looked that closely at the new growth because I didn't notice anything unusual about it or even the majority of the mature fan leaves. I'll have to check tomorrow when the lights come back on. On the sick fan leaves, the veins are only very slightly lighter than the top surface of the leaf and as the leaf dies out the veins are the last part of the leaf to brown up and dry out. I pull the fan leaves as soon as they start really yellowing up or turning brown and every day I find a couple of newly sick leaves that are obviously mature, in fact I'd even call them "old" before they start turning and getting sick. When it happens to a particular leaf it is a slow several day hting between first noticing the tips looking yellowish and sickly until there is enough dma ge that I pull the leaf and dispose of it. The one in the picture would probably have taken at last 3 and maybe 6 more days to get sick enough to remove it, but I wanted to try to show what they looked like when they first show, so I picked it to take the picture. Does this give you any more ideas? I htought early light starvation was a lightening up of the entire leaf followed by and actual color change to yellow or brown and eventually death. These plants do not look like that. They are as dark green as any others of the same strains. The WW leaves are always a lighter thinner looking leaf than the permafrosts. The PFs are very dark green and the leaf turn is really noticeable on them. Great smoking and hoping you have a great Summer.

#7 DonJones

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 10:52 AM

I just was going through one of my resources and found that yellow tips are a sign of over fertilization, but it doesn't say any thing about the actual progression of the problem. I thought that nute burn hit new growth first and then finally spread to the older growth. Does this look and sound like nute burn? If so, why is it only effecting the larger older fan leaves and not the more tender small newer fan leaves and none of the other leaves? The lights aren't on yet so haven't had a chance to really closely examine the vein colors yet but I'll do it today and try to post the results.

#8 phoneman

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:02 AM

I know it is probably something I know and can't place, but ever since I've switched over to separate Waterfarm buckets flowering under moving CMH lights on Holland Secret's 3 part nutrients, I have been having problems on both Permafrost and White Widow strains with the BIG fan leaves starting to turn yellow/brown on the edges, then it begins to spread back from the tip of the leaf. The remainder of the leave is soft and looks healthy but it gradually dies and drys out until I loose the entire leave.

I have been using the same strains, same nutrients and lighting without problems when I was growing in Black Gold. This has just become pronounced in the ones growing the Waterfarms. It happens just about equally whether the media is Hydroton or STG.

Attached is a poor photo of one of the permafrost leaves just beginning to show the dying edges (for a frame of reference the white paper under the leaf is approximately 6.5" wide by 9" tall). The effected leaves on the WW are smaller, as are all of the WW leaves in my grow, but exhibit the same sysptoms as the permafrost at the same stage of development, only with a smaller overall size Please notice that it is mostly showing up on the tips of the little teeth along the edge of the leaf and at the end of the leaf. Then it will gradually spread along the entire edge and eventually start dying from the ends back towards the leaf stem.

The worst effected leaves are not near the top outside of the plant where light burn should be happening. Placing my hand between the plants and the lights at the closest point is not uncomfortable for as long as I can hold my hand there -- usually a minute or two until my arm gets tired.

The remainder of the plant looks healthy and they are actually finishing out significantly faster than they ever did in Black Gold. If I had to hazard a guess, it is only effecting maybe 5% of the fan leaves and then only when they are big (the one in the picture is approximately 7.5" to 8.0" long from the end of the stem to the end of the leaf and maybe a bit wider than that).

Does anyone have any idea what is happening here?

PS: The flower room runs about 75F to maybe 80F when the lights are on, himidity runs in the neighborhood of 40% to 50%. I have a 10" oscillating fan circulating air inside the room and excellent air changes - as close to one exchange per 2 to 3 minutes as I can figure ( the area is ventilated via a 20" box fan sucking through a 20" square hole in the door and intake coming through a 8" X 16" louvered crawl space vent grill drawing from the inside basement air. The basement air is circulated through out the house by the central AC so it shouldn't be stagnet or CO2 depleted air.

Incidentally, our yield looks like it is going to be significantly higher and of a equal quality in less time than in the Black Gold, but it is still early so only time will answer that question.

Any suggestions will be appreciated, even if it is just not to worry about it.

WHAT IS A WATER FARM BUCKET? i grow hawaians in 3 gal pots, using foxfarms "happy frog" soil. my first grow, i got from 2 to 2 1/2 oz dry per plant. however,one guy told me this dirt is spendy 16.00 for a 2 cu ft bag), adn that there are cheaper and BETTER soil/soilless alternatives. what would you reccomnend? i allways put 2 tsp or so, of dolomite lime to each gal of soil. this helps prevent mg def. when plants are young, i often spritz with a bit of epsom in water. 1 tbl to gal. they seemto like this.

#9 DonJones

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:25 AM

Phoneman, search the forum for the word "waterfarm" in its various forms and you should find a lot of information on it. Basically it is a hybrid combination of DWC and drip hydro that uses a simple air pump with no moving parts to lift the solution up to the drip rings and at the same time it oxygenates the solution so that you run your drip continuously and it drains back down into the reservoir where the roots also hang in the solution. Waterfarm is a registered trade mark for General Hydroponics' system that can also be found on GH's website. If you are unable to find the thread on it, PM me and I'll see if I can't find links to them. Try looking in the DIY section. I regularly visit and post on 2 forums and it is hard for me to remembber what is where.

#10 DonJones

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 11:49 AM

Phoneman, I just checked my local gowing/nursery supply store and here in WA I would have to pay slightly over $20/cubic foot for the Happy Frog and then it isn't a complete growing medium but only a soil amendment that you mix into dirt or a "soilless" potting mix like Black Gold, so $16/2 cubic feet doesn't sound bad at all, especially since it has ot be basically shipped overseas to get to Hawaii. I pay $11.39 per 1.5 cubic feet of Black Gold without the large freight charges you are absorbing and it is a nearly nutrient-less peat moss and perlite mixture that you have to feed nearly every time you water, so $16/2 cubic feet of a complete nutrient containing potting mixture sound pretty reasonable to me, especially with the additional freight you get stuck with. Please don't hesitate to contact me if you need more information on the Waterfarm systems. I like it better than any thing else I have seen because it combines the simplicity of DWC with the effectiveness of drip systems without the additional complications of liquid pumps and timers usually used with drip systems. Als, it can be comparatively inexpensive to put together if you are into DIY stuff. I figure that I'm paying under $20 for a complete 5 gallon system and General Hydro's commercial ones are selling for over $70 here in the grow shops.

#11 Turf

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:46 PM

IMO- you are starting to lock out phosphorus with too low of a pH. phos locks out in the low 6's, different varieties are more or less sensitive to it, some grow fine, some varieties show lock out symptoms.

#12 DonJones

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 05:23 PM

TurfScience, The phosphorous lock out due to low pH is kind of odd because my pH has a tendency to run high not low. Also, don't nutrient problems usually show up in the tender new growth first instead of the older growth? Also, RogueToker was asking about the veins. In both the new growth and older large fan leaves the veins are very narrow light green lines in both strains, Permafrost and WW. That is the same general way the ones in veg that aren't showing any problems look even in different strains. I'm pretty sure that if I took pictures of the "normal" looking leaves with my cheap camera, you ouldn/t be able to see the veins because they are that narrow and that close to the same color as the face of the leaf itself.

Edited by DonJones, 13 July 2010 - 06:37 PM.
grammar/spelling; additional information


#13 Bluesky73

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 09:36 AM

I am no expert but I had a similar problem. I bought some expensive micronutrient "trinity" by Roots. What I found was the mirconutrients build up over time raising your PH. My understanding is a high PH can lockout mirconutrients starving plants of trace elements. Good luck. Thanks for serving our country. Peace.

#14 DonJones

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 12:49 PM

Bluesky73, You are welcome. Although I must tell you that most of the time, especially after going to the VA Medical Center, I feel ashamed to call myself a "Disabled Vet" because I never went overseas, never saw combat or field exercises and have such minor disabilities in comparison to the seriously injured combat vets. All of my service was stateside at Air Force bases either in Security Police or Data Processing with the majority being in a controlled atmosphere computer room. I am learning to accept through contact with the "real disabled vets" that without us "support troops" the "combat troops" could not function or even exist, so my service was as valuable to the country as theirs was. It is really hard to accept that though when you are speaking to a POW, a paralyzed vet or someone missing body parts or even worse with a sound body but a shattered mind.

#15 mediuse

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:11 PM

They also serve who stand and wait. muA

#16 Third floor turtle

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:45 PM

goodmorning don just a couple thoughts on what could be going on #1 could be nute burn (imho water farm buckets use way to much nutes )if the root zone is in constant contact with the nutes than you should use about 3/4 strength nutes so they wont burn the plants #2 this is the time of year in cali (and most of the left coast ) when root aphids show up and they cause damage similar to the damage you discribe are any of the smaller leaves twards the bottom doing this as well ? i know its a pain to do but check your root zone look for black or sort of rust colored bugs that look like aphids but without wings(they get wings later) if indeed you have root aphids than you need some preditory nematodes the species you need is HETERORHABDITIS BACTERIOPHORA if you dont havethem than count your blessings . i say this because root aphids are satans children and a pain in the arse to get rid of hopefuly this info will help you find the cause of your problem Many Blessings Turtle sometimes you just have to say f**k it and just do what your heart tells you is right thats my law




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