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U.S. DEA Finally Gets Its Man


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#26 ileso

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 07:45 PM

this guy thumbed his nose at the DEA and the US federal government and he ended up losing... I think he could have served his cause more efficiently if he would have kept his head down, and kept on doing what he was getting away with.


sorry operator1. ill dissagree with you on this note. he didnt end up losing. you are only seeing the immediate short term situation.
keeping our heads down is what keeps us in our current mess. heads down time is definately over. its push push push time. if ghandi kept his head down idia would still be brittish. if mandela did the same he'd have died in jail or of aids in some shanty town...

hes playing the game. hes taking them on. us stoners really have to take on the law. united man. many may not like him, but hes doing the right thing. hes bringing the fight into the public arena.

if gay people kept their heads down thered still be unjust anti gay laws...

alot of stoners keep their heads down because they are scared of short term consequences, not realising that in the long run they will win. and any short term effects will ultimately be worth it. marks pretty darned brave.. a little headstrong maybe. but hes got ***** man. because of him theres discussion, its gone public, its on tv... many peple that otherwise wouldnt give a sht are realising ' hey, this is unjust!'. thats what hes doing.

... so how would he be fighting better by keeping his head down and becoming like arjan exactly?
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#27 ileso

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 07:51 PM

in the long run its good. 'the cause' needs this sort of activism michael. its brings it out into the public. he made himself into a public world renowned figure. and now hes in jail. representing you and me. publicly. he may not be jesus, but this is how things get changed, when someone has the ***** to stand up for everyone else thats too sht scared. for those that keep their heads down. he has almost single handedly put the injustice of it all in the media. in a spectacularly mediatised way. if you look closely you'll realise that not only has he done this, he is playing the game on his own terms. now lets hope he doesnt lose. he has made one jiant mediatised push. but that sort of action needs backing. some of us may not like him, we may not agree with it. but hell, if one single stoner has the ***** to stand up the the system then shouldnt we be backing him 105% instead of squabbling in the sidelines looking for handouts? because the positive outcome far outweighs the negative one s if we win. every one has been moaning for decades about the injustice of it all, about how for the past 50 years pot will be legal within the decade... finally someone has had enough and got the ***** to do something visible and we sit back and do nothing? wheres the logic in that? so what if he's a prick. who cares if you dont like him. put aside your personal oppinions of the man and back up his actions for the 'cause'. or in fifty years we'll still be saying pot will be legal within the decade. you know what i wish. that everyone did the same. everyone just bluntly and openly toked up, grew, swapped seeds.. whatever. everywhere in total disregard for the law. if EVERYONE followed this guys example. the laws would be overturned in less than a week. theres no way in hell they'd jail us all. even if they fined us. opt for community service instead of jail or fines(if you have the option). block the system. bring it to a halt. get their attention. they'll change the law before you know it. but people are too busy thinking about you know who to be that selfless. whether or not the mans a saint. his actions are EXACTLY what the cause needs.

Edited by ileso, 04 October 2009 - 08:04 PM.

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#28 SmokeToLive

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 08:18 PM

I don't think it's right for him to go to jail for what he did. But, that was the deal he made. There was no trial. There was just a deal made. He's a businessman. That's what they do - make deals. Revolutionaries and activists don't make deals. They make war. Ask them and they'll tell you. Those that are alive to tell their tales, anyway.

ME wouldn't make a pimple on the ass of a true revolutionary, like Thomas Payne, Ben Franklin, Sam Adams, et al. - or my own hero, Emiliano Zapata.

They were REVOLUTIONARIES, not deal-makers.



And what was he facing anyway? Regardless of whether or not he made the deal, they were trying to do to put him in jail, and for many more years than he agreed to. The idea that he has to be your freedom fighter or martyr is just silly. We should be grateful that anyone is willing to be that public and go through that much, not disgusted that he wouldn't give more.

He's a crazy stoner, so what. As I said, he doesn't have to be held up as an example of the greatest revolutionary, but he doesn't deserve jail or our disgust/apathy.

And it isn't fair, right, just or whatever word you would like to pick, Corsican. We can all pretend that these concepts don't really exist when it's convenient, but we're describing things with words which are all human constructs. Do they really exist? (Rhetorical for obvious reasons.) It's silly to sit around on a forum all day discussing what people ought to do only to blame the victim when they make a move, even if it isn't a move we wholeheartedly support.

The bottom line is that we need to stop blaming the victim. Besides, it's making me nauseous, and I am a little low on smoke right now.

Edited by SmokeToLive, 04 October 2009 - 08:28 PM.

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#29 Guest_operator1_*

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 08:25 PM

I just think that by being put in prison he is losing a ton of clout with the older generation in this country that he could have connected with on a different level (not sure what that level is). Most of our policy makers are an older generation stuck in they're stereotypes of "marijuana is bad" and stuff like that. They need someone they can relate to to explain it to them and make them see the light. I'm not saying he's not fighting the good fight, but even being canadian I think puts him in a bad spot for the fight to legalize it in the US. He's not a citizen, so how can he reason with anyone on policy and things like that. I think less people will listen to him now cause of his record and the fact that he is from canada trying to affect change in the US. We need people from here to change what is going on here. I think we are making some good headway on our own and if we keep on with what we are doing we can eventually get the fed to at least legalize medical use across the board. Mark is a good man fighting for what he believes in, don't get me wrong, I just think his underground following should have been utilized and "cultivated" further to make his cause more mainstream. I'm slightly intoxicated at the moment so I'm sorry if the statement above makes little or no sense.

#30 ileso

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 08:28 PM

but the move has been made. my point is if we dont support a crazy move like this (crazy for us maybe, he doesnt think so. hes standing up for his beliefs). what we cant do is sit around divided and bickering amongst ourselves as smoketolive said. we have to be a united front. the enemy wants us divided... its an age old tactic. divide and conquer. if we dont faulter we wont fail people. ... united boys and girls, united....
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#31 Guest_operator1_*

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 08:31 PM

I agree we need to be united, but we also need to find a way to appeal to the generation of politicians that control the policy in this country... as it stands now, the fed is making money on mark cause he is in jail, and they will use him as a trophy for they're cause. There has to be a better way, I think...

#32 ileso

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 08:36 PM

I'm not saying he's not fighting the good fight, but even being canadian I think puts him in a bad spot for the fight to legalize it in the US. He's not a citizen, so how can he reason with anyone on policy and things like that. I think less people will listen to him now cause of his record and the fact that he is from canada trying to affect change in the US. We need people from here to change what is going on here. I think we are making some good headway on our own and if we keep on with what we are doing we can eventually get the fed to at least legalize medical use across the board. Mark is a good man fighting for what he believes in, don't get me wrong, I just think his underground following should have been utilized and "cultivated" further to make his cause more mainstream.



there are no borders in this fight man... it matters not if hes canadian austrian or brasilian. in fact this is a canadian owned site....

he's not about changing the laws IN the US. Why would he do that? he's canadian. its about changing mentalities everywhere. its about waking people up to the BIG picture.

and thats right we need people from everywhere fighting everywhere.

and i disagree any sort of record will affect how hes listened to or viewed.. thats a very shallow mentality. it opens peoples eyes to the reality of things. the absurdity of going to gail for producing and selling seeds... thats the picture. the absurdity of laws against plants... might as well make bears illegal as well. they are dangerous...

look at the big picture man. step outside the box and look back in.

I agree we need to be united, but we also need to find a way to appeal to the generation of politicians that control the policy in this country... as it stands now, the fed is making money on mark cause he is in jail, and they will use him as a trophy for they're cause. There has to be a better way, I think...



we dont have to appeal to the 'older generation of politicians' (explain the dif between ththe old and the new ones..) we have to change the laws period. not appeal to anyone... or we'll never get anywhere.

there is no better way man. this is the best and probably the most direct rout bar all out civil disobediance... which i think is preferable to any other way. because the message is very strong and very clear...

let them make a public show of him... it could very well become their downfall.

appeal to the politicians? what is that.. like lewinsky style?

Edited by ileso, 04 October 2009 - 08:45 PM.


#33 ileso

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 08:48 PM

im not trying to be an arse, but trying to appeal to the politicians is what we have been trying for the past fifty odd years... they keep stonewalling us with BS. time to make em LISTEN

#34 Guest_operator1_*

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 08:49 PM

Come on now... You have to know that the older generation has a very bad view of people who have been in jail. I'm not making any bold statement there, my grandparents think that criminals are criminals. Its not a good view point to have but that's the way it is. I do look outside the box, and I'm not shallow minded ( kinda resent that remark actually) I simply try to offer opposing viewpoints from time to time to create better debate. And the thought that Americans will not respect him cause he is canadian is at least a little valid. I don't know many Americans with respect for canada as it is, don't really know why either. I could care less about canadians either way, they are there just like everyone else. I don't dislike them or like them any more or less than any other country. I think there may need to be boarders in this fight, at least a little bit anyway. This is going to sound arrogant but I think that if the US legalized pot many other countries would soon follow suit just because of the fact the the US did it. I really don't want to sound like an arrogant ass here, but many people hold this country in high regard for one reason or another. Don't get me wrong, please, I want legalization. I think it is completely retarded to think that this plant can cause people to be horrible. However, the fact remains, too many people are making money on the drug war and we need to find a way to convince them that the wallet should not be the motivating factor in this argument.

#35 ileso

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 08:53 PM

and I'm not shallow minded ( kinda resent that remark actually)

sorry... i let my passion get the better of me... it wasnt directed at you personally but at people in general.

but many people hold this country in high regard for one reason or another.

.. those were the days... this is in fact not true. quite the oposite is in fact true. europe hates that country, south america as well... and lo and behold even the aussies cant stand them. (not the people but the country and its dominace and use of brute force in the world)... travel around and ask ... you'll see

they used to though.. but that was like forty years ago.... unfortunately not many americans realise this and the rest dont care...

i understand your point of view for a less active fight.. appealing to politicians, old people etc etc.. but look, we all know it doesnt work. its been tried and tested... even the new ones wont go down that path either...

as foer criminal convictions sinse when has that stopped people from changing the world? mandela was in jail for how many years, and ghandi... and even jesus... ooooh sht. hehehe

united can also mean a fight on all fronts simultaneously. if you think the oldies wont buy the message from a 'criminal' then get an alternative. but sitting around managing a team from your home sofa doesnt work. sitting around saying this shouldnt be done this way or this is wrong doesnt work. activism in all its forms WILL work. individually or organised, with OGG acts or joining pro cannabis marches and rally's will work.

a good example is if gay people tried to appeal to the older generations where would they be today?

Edited by ileso, 04 October 2009 - 09:10 PM.


#36 Guest_operator1_*

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Posted 04 October 2009 - 08:56 PM

I understand... no problem, no offense taken.

#37 The Corsican

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 03:55 AM

SmokeToLive, I'm not blaming Emory, I'm saying the man knew what he was doing. I wasn't being semantic when I spoke on the concept of fair. Emory thought he was going to get away with ridiculing the United States government and he lost. I don't like the idea that the man is in jail and I'm not happy about it but you shouldn't get upset with me because Emory got locked up. Michael is right, He's a business man and he made a deal with our government. I used to sit around and think to myself "Things just aren't fair" but then I woke up. Fair has nothing to do with it. Life isn't fair and it never will be. What happened isn't right and it needs to stop. I do not like the DEA in any way, shape or form but I know it's out there prowling for more victims. If I got pinched tomorrow it would be wrong and justice and the universe would be on my side but fair doesn't have any place in the conversation. I agree with pretty much everything you wrote I just think you missing the distinction we were trying to make. peace, -the Corsican.

#38 SmokeToLive

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 07:09 AM

I don't sit around thinking things just aren't fair. In fact, I don't even have time lately to sit around and talk on the forum that often. But even if you got arrested, I would believe fairness to still be involved. And I understand the distinction you're trying to make, but it isn't a distinction worth the attitudes presented here. (You can play semantics with yourself.) The war on drugs isn't an animal that got poked; it's man made. It took many people deliberately working over a long period of time toward the goal of arresting/jailing him to even accomplish the deal. (That is no small amount of effort, and it definitely isn't a bear foraging for food.) The continued judgment of ME and others is still sickening. I think I can get away with it too. Does that make it somehow ok or expected if I get arrested? I don't care if "life isn't fair." That is a horrible excuse for apathy, especially when my meaning is clear. Life isn't a vast number of things we think it is, but that doesn't change the situation. Many people here are flaunting cannabis laws for one reason or another, and none of them deserve any punishment for it. Do you understand yet the distinction I am trying to make? It doesn't matter if he put a big flag in his yard that said "POT GROWER." This whole situation is not right, and we can't just say that ME is getting what he deserves because he chose to plea down a few years. It's selfish and pathetic.

#39 ileso

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 07:23 AM

guys we really have to stop arguing of the filosophical questions of whether the monkey poked the bead with a stick or not, but really get together on this in the long run and say ****.. ok so this guy got arrested and is making a huge VISIBLE fuss over it. will we take up the fight or not? fact is hes taken the unfairness of pot related arrests into the public arena, into the media... it could be you or I. and if it were, we'd stick our haids in the sand.. but it isnt. its him. hes making a row over it. our job is little else than to make his noise louder. whether hes done it on porpuse or not, whether hes an idiot or not. its an oportunity for cannabis reform people. inside the us and outside the Us . and its opened cannabis laws to attack from a multitude of angles... can it be no-one else sees it?
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#40 SmokeToLive

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 07:33 AM

I can put this in another context: Imagine a girl dressing up and going out. While out she is attacked and raped. Does it make it ok for her to be raped because she was "advertising" herself in her nice outfit? (Or perhaps speaking out about women's issues?) Does it matter that she made a deal with her attacker in order to try to get out of the situation sooner? Hell no. And if someone called her a businesswoman for that, they would likely deserve a black eye.

#41 zerothehero

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 07:59 AM

I think that if the US legalized pot many other countries would soon follow suit just because of the fact the the US did it. I really don't want to sound like an arrogant ass here, but many people hold this country in high regard for one reason or another.



i find that quite valid, though perhaps not for the reason you do..
to date, most if not all countries that have contemplated legalisation in any form have been told in no uncertain terms that they need to cease and desist.
a case in point is our last prime minister here in nz, our green party was in coalition with labour party and they had drawn the cannabis votes with talk of legalization, now helen clarke had been, whilst not keen, at least open to the idea of revisiting the misuse of drugs act.
That came crashing down and all talk stopped very suddenly, the greens were mollified with the anti smacking bill (a pet project of one of the greens co leaders) and all of us users/growers/reformists waiting with bated breath were left in the cold wondering what had happened.
Fast foward a few years, helen clarke has a cushy number on the UN council, everyone who had a stake in change got the shaft and no one else in pariament even dares SPEAK the word cannabis.
John key is another tosser in it for what he can milk, he's a business bigwig so he DOES like the US and i guaruntee you, unless the USA changes policy, mr john spineless-arse kiss key won't be rocking no boats.
sorry if i sound bitter,
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#42 The Corsican

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 08:01 AM

Smoke, I think you're taking what I say on a personal level and it's showing in your responses in a negative way. I'm not personally offended by it but I can see where it is going to lead. I can discuss and debate the issues without getting personal or harboring any bad feelings towards anyone. You're throwing around a lot of animosity because of what I believe Smoke. I have no problem with you but it's apparent that you have a problem with me. Some people can't discuss topics like this without letting their emotions rule them and that's unfortunate. What you perceive as offensive hasn't been. I've kept everything I've said on a respectful level, please do the same. If you disagree, no problem, but please don't continue to lash out at me because we see things differently. Sincerely, -the Corsican.

#43 SmokeToLive

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 01:15 PM

Smoke,

I think you're taking what I say on a personal level and it's showing in your responses in a negative way. I'm not personally offended by it but I can see where it is going to lead. I can discuss and debate the issues without getting personal or harboring any bad feelings towards anyone. You're throwing around a lot of animosity because of what I believe Smoke. I have no problem with you but it's apparent that you have a problem with me. Some people can't discuss topics like this without letting their emotions rule them and that's unfortunate.

What you perceive as offensive hasn't been. I've kept everything I've said on a respectful level, please do the same. If you disagree, no problem, but please don't continue to lash out at me because we see things differently.

Sincerely,

-the Corsican.



You don't have the right to tell me how I feel. The Internet is not a means of transmitting emotions. If you're afraid of me coming on too strong, then pick a topic where I'm not certain I am right. It is selfish and pathetic to have the attitudes presented here when someone is really going to jail while simultaneously bringing all sorts of attention to your cause.

What you have been doing is blaming the victim, and I don't tolerate it wherever I see it. (Hence me putting it into other contexts.)

If you disagree, no problem, just pick on people who aren't going to sit in a jail cell, the perp not the victim. But in the case of the drug war, character assassinations are the domain of the DEA/police. (Not to mention the drug war's victims are the perps.)

That I have had to explain it so many times is frustrating. But I am out of time to beat around the bush and politely point out the problem. That is how it is, fair or not. (Enjoy the bluntness, and start catching the little jokes, then it doesn't seem quite as harsh.)

P.S. I don't know you to like or dislike you.

Edited by SmokeToLive, 05 October 2009 - 01:24 PM.
Not to mention...


#44 SmokeToLive

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 01:40 PM

If I really had a problem with you, why would I write about my agreements with you in other threads: http://www.greenpass...999-post43.html

I've seen this crop up in other civil rights movements, and it's a shame to see. But if you can find a reason to say it's ok for one person to go to jail(not have rights) on any level, you can find a reason for all of us to go to jail(not have rights) on some level. If you blame the person for not doing enough, or for somehow being part of the problem, especially when they're obviously sacrificing years of their life, it's a serious issue for all of us. Because you're talking about all of us.

#45 ileso

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Posted 05 October 2009 - 08:46 PM

these arent controversial topics for no reason. peopel will always disagree. its natural because people have different points of view and expression. we are not robotic clones yet, though i'll bet there are those out there that wish we were. (but dont worry, they are working on it). what we have to agree is thatwhatever the points of view. because people are all different they will find different ways to fight, naturally. but we have to turn the trickle into a wave. and the wave (please pardon the pun, my heart does go out to victims of natural disaster) into a tsunami. they steamroll us. we have to be louder, more vocal, more visible. i think thats what ME is about. visibility. and even if we dont like him for personal reasons. we do have to remember that each attack on individual stoner, grower, breeder is an attack on all of us. like a message i once saw on the wall of a cemetary 'today us, tomorrow you'. but unlike the case of death, which will one day come to us all. this tide can be turned. remember that we can be divided at a personal level but come the common enemy we unite and fight and win, so that we can get back to our personal bickerings after wards. (who says theres nothing to be learnt from the pashtun tribes of afghanistan?)

#46 Michael

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 05:43 AM

I've been away for a couple of days. So, I didn't see this until now.

Smoke, I'm afraid you've crossed the line from talking about the issues to being personally insulting. I understand you feel strongly about this issue. But, that's not a reason to let your emotions get the better of you. If you can't discuss the issues without getting angry, don't discuss them, at all.

My advice is to realize that most people won't agree with you most of the time - especially if you're right. It's not easy being stoic, but it's worth it if you can pull it off.

As for the issue, I don't agree that ME represents me in any way, shape or form or that I'm obliged to rally behind him, or support him, or even like him. I certainly didn't elect him the "Prince of Pot". He gave himself that title. I never asked him to represent me, either. I represent myself just fine, thank you very much.

On a personal level, as a human being, I find his conceit, hypocrisy and past conduct to be damned near enough to make me wanna puke. But, I can pretty much keep from letting that take control of me. As much as he gets on my nerves, he makes me a lot less nauseous than those people who were elected to represent me!!

Anyway, let's keep it civil and agree that we aren't always gonna agree on everything and that's actually a very good thing. Hell, it might even prove me wrong... maybe we aren't just another herd of humans... maybe we are special. Ya never know...

#47 SmokeToLive

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 08:01 AM

I don't agree. I'm sorry if you're feelings are hurt, but I don't have a problem with pointing out selfish attitudes. I haven't labeled anyone here anything, nor do I think any less of them. All the advice is not needed, kthx. Besides, this thread started (and is continuing) with name calling. It's just that ME isn't here to defend himself. But as I repeat, I didn't say we had to hold him up to the limelight. But starting with calling NORML liars for not calling ME a "big mouthed" "opportunist" who is "conceited" and "hypocritical" in their press release about him going to jail is what I would call silly. (There, I used 'silly'. How hurt can you be?) We can't use character assassination as any sort of emotional justification for what has happened; it's wrong from the beginning. And it's a concept bigger than ME. (Are we liking all the double meanings in the sentences yet?) It's like expecting the gay rights movement to stay in the closet because it's dangerous to do otherwise. And yet they can still be represented by drag queens, groups of men in all leather or the self described dykes you mistook for a group of truckers, many of whom outwardly don't appeal to the masses.

Edited by SmokeToLive, 06 October 2009 - 08:14 AM.
It's like...


#48 Michael

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 08:36 AM

I don't think my meaning could have possibly been more misunderstood - and I'm certainly not offended. Marc Emery is a public figure. Just like Obama and Bush. Opinions about public figures aren't personal insults by anyone's definition. Or is it ok to say Bush sucks but ya better not talk about Marc Emery? Not here. Everyone is fair game here. All I really meant by my post was let's agree to disagree and call it a day - civilly. You believe what you want and it doesn't bother me, at all. It never will. If you believed the world was flat or Santa came down the chimney on Dec. 24th with an armful of crap from WalMart, it would be just as significant to me as your reverence for Marc Emery. I'm not trying to change your mind. That would be a complete waste of time, which, even if it succeeded, would do absolutely nothing for me on any level, whatsoever. How is your opinion of Marc Emery going to affect my life? How could it? I'll give Marc Emery his due, though. He's a hell of a businessman and self-promoter. The fact that people actually believe that he is some sort of hero/martyr/revolutionary is proof of that. He's a marketing and PR whiz. But, he's none of the other stuff he claims to aspire to be. It's all shuck and jive. It's pretty obvious, too. But, if you want to believe something, you will believe it. That's human nature.

#49 SmokeToLive

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 12:20 PM

You haven't noticed, but I am not defending ME's character. Why? It doesn't matter. Character assassination is labeled that way for a reason. I believe that our cause is such that anyone being arrested for these laws is being arrested unjustly. I don't care what you think of ME; it isn't important. There is no justification for this, and NORML isn't lying by excluding defamatory remarks about ME. It isn't important what you think of ME as a person or as a figure, and nothing you think of him should detract from the strength of his position -- because he is really going to jail. If you would like to see it another way, so be it, but as much as I might not care for Bush as a person, I would be defending him in this situation as well. (In fact, I would probably ask why he didn't light up a few years ago.) But continuing to bring in pieces of ME's character is irrelevant. If you want to discuss the pitfalls and drawbacks of ME as a person, great, but you can do so out of the context of this thread, his arrest/plea, and NORML. (Because his position is rock solid here.) But to take it so far as to say he deserves this in some way or another because of some piece of his character is wrong, and we certainly can't be selfish and say he isn't doing enough. I'm sorry he isn't your perfect martyr.

Edited by SmokeToLive, 06 October 2009 - 12:32 PM.
The last line is likely the most loaded.

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#50 Michael

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Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:05 PM

Point taken.




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