LEDS...really?

[NoBsplz]

I know I'm new here, but I just cant help but try to drum up a little debate.I've been checking in here from time to time, as well as a few other sites, researching this current led "boom".I run a cool tubed 400 watt hps in a 4x4 grow tent, and I was considering delving into the led thing.Who wouldnt want to achieve hid results at a fraction of the wattage?Enter the 90 watt ufo...400-600 watt hps equivalent, runs cool, blah-blah-blah.Well, no one has substantiated that claim.Now we have double ufo's- theres a 180 watt ufo now right? Supposedly equal to 400-600 watts of hps...then what is 90 watts equal to?Now we're seeing hps vs hid comparison grow journals...with the wattage being equal on both sides....huh? Now, I've seen some so-so results with these things...but nothing that compares to ANY led salesmans claims.And at these ridiculously infllated prices?What if someone sold you a car that supposedly topped out at 140 mph, and when you drove it, it couldnt crack 40 mph?I'd be furious, and thats exactly the reason that I wont purchase any led unit at this point and time.Now these are my personal observations...I'm not saying I'm right.And I would love to be proved wrong, with believable data from an unbiased source...of course.But I just harvested a plant that gave me 150 grams, and 4 more behind her about 5 weeks away.I would even be interested if led, and hps we're equal watt for watt... but nobody has proven that yet, as far as I know.Can anyone shed some light on this.Once again, I'm not here to start a flame war.I'm obviously interested...I just cant find proof that this is a viable-equal producing-alternative to our hid love-hate relationship.Heres my box o buds, to show that I do grow

[Michael]

I think the 180 is the best light out there. But, it's not a miracle. You still need 40 - 50 watts per square foot to bud properly. But, the yields are higher than an equal wattage of HID.

That's pretty straightforward, eh?

[Shpongled]

I have to say that I mostly agree with you. I have been researching this issue and currently there are very few actual comparison reports out there. I realize that sometimes change is hard even with a superior product. This might be the case here.

I have a few personal observations:

The lumen output of LED grow lights is far less then any HID's. The idea is that the light produced is tuned to the proper wavelengths for plants which makes up for the difference. I don't know if this is actually the case.

Most LED lights look like they are all sourced from the same Chinese suppliers. Multiple sellers have conflicting info about their lights and all claim theirs is "special". This fact alone makes me suspicious of them. Things like the wattage of the led's used, wavelengths produced etc are difficult to verify by the end user.

I am trying to build my own at the moment and am finding it exceedingly difficult to source LED's with the ideal parameters for plant growth. They are out there but are rare. I have seen some press releases about Japanese LED manufacturers starting to produce LED's specifically for plant growth. If you want an example on the difficulty of finding the right part try to google "660nm 1W LED". Hopefully this will change in the future.

All of the manufacturers are very protective of the actual specific light output from their lights. I had seen some info on ebay auctions about the different LEDs used but once again you end up taking them at their word. I understand why this is at the moment. There is a bit of R&D that goes into combining the different colors LED's used which someone might need to protect. Until LED lighting becomes more common this will continue to be an issue.

If you add the lack of reports, lack of information from vendors, possible misrepresentation of their products and high initial price we have a problem.

I am at the point where I wish I had the cash to buy 2 similar LED Grow lights. One from a "high end" vendor and one from Ebay and take them both apart. That way I could actually see the diodes used and see the differences between them. Then I would post a step by step breakdown pictorial of both!

[Michael]

You must realize that it's not a simple matter of breaking down a light to see how it's made and building a replica. If it was, we would have nothing to protect, would we?

Think about it.

Everyone uses the same generic chassis. It's what's inside them that matters.

[Shpongled]

You do realize that it would provide me and others with more info available anywhere else right? Of course I wouldn't be able to build a replica.

But I could see the exact LED part numbers, find out their manufacturers, check their actual specs, see if the other electronics used like resistors, caps or LED controlers are of high quality or Chinese junk. I could see if they are both based of the same PCB layout and check the quality of the soldering on the unit.

Please don't assume that because I don't have experience with LED lights that I have no electronics background. I have been building many DIY projects in the home audio world and know how to check the difference between a vishay resistor and a Chinese one and I know a good solder joint vs one by a 10y old boy in a sweat shop.

LED lights are not rocket science. I agree that finding the right lights and wavelengths used can be tricky but once I popped one open all that info would be right in front of me. No only would I have info on the lights but the placement is right there as well. The rest of the circuit is simple. You can build or buy power drivers and from there the wiring is simple.

[howlin420]

i like the discussions here . they inform without getting heated or just full of crap opinions.
all i know is that without opening up the 2 1/2 to 3 ft plants ( had to see what they do down in the plant as folks claimed no penetration ,they do) i did get 2 oz dry per plant with the lastest room having 1 -90 watt ufo type per 2 plants ,a couple did have 1 light per .so not huge weight but nice nugs with total trichome coverage.
next room has 1 per with plants opened up .i hope there is a increase ,not that i need it but i expect it with bending.

[NoBsplz]

Originally Posted by Michael

I think the 180 is the best light out there. But, it's not a miracle. You still need 40 - 50 watts per square foot to bud properly. But, the yields are higher than an equal wattage of HID.

That's pretty straightforward, eh?

Cool! Alright, a confident answer.So, if I ran 400 watts(theoretically) I could get beefier yields- I'm a little frustrated at my 12oz (max) yields with the 400, and would like to up that, without upping my power consumption.So, 2 180's could trump a 400? Now, I have to warn everyone that I'm skeptical in nature, but far from close minded.Right now I'm on a data hunt, and man what a pain it is to get viable data on this subject.Fanatics on both sides you know.

[NoBsplz]

Originally Posted by Shpongled

I have to say that I mostly agree with you. I have been researching this issue and currently there are very few actual comparison reports out there. I realize that sometimes change is hard even with a superior product. This might be the case here.

I have a few personal observations:

The lumen output of LED grow lights is far less then any HID's. The idea is that the light produced is tuned to the proper wavelengths for plants which makes up for the difference. I don't know if this is actually the case.

Most LED lights look like they are all sourced from the same Chinese suppliers. Multiple sellers have conflicting info about their lights and all claim theirs is "special". This fact alone makes me suspicious of them. Things like the wattage of the led's used, wavelengths produced etc are difficult to verify by the end user.

I am trying to build my own at the moment and am finding it exceedingly difficult to source LED's with the ideal parameters for plant growth. They are out there but are rare. I have seen some press releases about Japanese LED manufacturers starting to produce LED's specifically for plant growth. If you want an example on the difficulty of finding the right part try to google "660nm 1W LED". Hopefully this will change in the future.

All of the manufacturers are very protective of the actual specific light output from their lights. I had seen some info on ebay auctions about the different LEDs used but once again you end up taking them at their word. I understand why this is at the moment. There is a bit of R&D that goes into combining the different colors LED's used which someone might need to protect. Until LED lighting becomes more common this will continue to be an issue.

If you add the lack of reports, lack of information from vendors, possible misrepresentation of their products and high initial price we have a problem.

I am at the point where I wish I had the cash to buy 2 similar LED Grow lights. One from a "high end" vendor and one from Ebay and take them both apart. That way I could actually see the diodes used and see the differences between them. Then I would post a step by step breakdown pictorial of both!

Looks like I came to the right spot.I'm highly interested in your data-get inside a couple of those bad boys and see whats really up.I can totally understand keeping RnD on the qt-but that just leaves so many open ends.I know hid, I know how it works, and I know what I can produce with a given wattage.Led's are a source of intrigue for me, and I've been hunting down a forum where these things can be discussed rationally.Too many led threads degrade due to the obvious reasons, and the poor silent majority, like me, that really want to understand this tek are left out in the cold.Cool heads seem to prevail here.

[NoBsplz]

Originally Posted by howlin420

i like the discussions here . they inform without getting heated or just full of crap opinions.
all i know is that without opening up the 2 1/2 to 3 ft plants ( had to see what they do down in the plant as folks claimed no penetration ,they do) i did get 2 oz dry per plant with the lastest room having 1 -90 watt ufo type per 2 plants ,a couple did have 1 light per .so not huge weight but nice nugs with total trichome coverage.
next room has 1 per with plants opened up .i hope there is a increase ,not that i need it but i expect it with bending.

Very cool.2 oz's per plant is nothing to snub your nose at.Allright! We have people here that are actually doin it, now we're gettin somewhere.I dread asking about them, just the mere mention seems to bring out the sharks.I dont get it, it's a grow light.Either you dig what you see, or you dont.Why fight?

[Shpongled]

NoBSPlz: Be aware that Michael the admin of this site sells the LED's he recommends. That does not mean they are bad. In fact I would say its the opposite. He is very open about that fact and is helpful to anyone interested in any LED projects.

Also, im not sure if the promo is still running but I believe he is offering a discount to members who purchase the product and will do a full grow log with it. You can talk to him about that for more details.

Either way he seems like a good person and if I was purchasing LED lights he would be at the top of my list. He is not some ebay seller that does not know shit about growing, he is always around and that means there is some accountability.

I would love to pop a few open but don't have any cash to buy them at the moment. Hell I don't even grow. I will be using my for starting tomatoes and other crops from seed.

[NoBsplz]

Originally Posted by Shpongled

NoBSPlz: Be aware that Michael the admin of this site sells the LED's he recommends. That does not mean they are bad. In fact I would say its the opposite. He is very open about that fact and is helpful to anyone interested in any LED projects.

Also, im not sure if the promo is still running but I believe he is offering a discount to members who purchase the product and will do a full grow log with it. You can talk to him about that for more details.

Either way he seems like a good person and if I was purchasing LED lights he would be at the top of my list. He is not some ebay seller that does not know shit about growing, he is always around and that means there is some accountability.

I would love to pop a few open but don't have any cash to buy them at the moment. Hell I don't even grow. I will be using my for starting tomatoes and other crops from seed.

I'm in the same money boat.Scrappin right now to get everyone X-Mas gifts.I figure after Feb I'll be just getting around to smoking non-off brand-cigarettes lol.Gotta take care of the peeps before I get my toys.So goes it.But I checked the cat (Michael) out and I like the fact that he's been here awhile WE KNOW WHERE YOU"RE AT MICHAEL haha jk.Seriously, that puts me right at ease.I checked their site-that 350 caught my eye immediately-almost scary looking.And I'd imagine that those 3w diodes help the cause.Now, I've heard 2 180's being recommended over the 350? Is that correct?

[Shpongled]

Yea he recommends 2 180's because of better coverage I think.

[NoBsplz]

Originally Posted by Shpongled

Yea he recommends 2 180's because of better coverage I think.

Interesting, I've always had the idea that a single powerful point light source would beat out two lower powered light sources.But thats where this stuff gets interesting, because it's like the old rules just dont apply here.

[6951A]

The problem I see with LED is that all the claims I've seen so far are anecdotal. The few grow logs that have been done never document the relevant data (fully dried grams/watt). It's generally (at best) pics of plants that were grown under LED but no hard numbers. Show me the triple beam!

Those grow logs are even few and far between, most are just anecdotally "I got this", which is fine for demonstrating that a light will grow "something" but in my opinion, HPS is the top dog, and if you wanna claim you can beat the top dog you need hard numbers. The only hard numbers i've seen were from a couple years ago when I was part of a custome made light from Cree Xlamps which at the time were the most effecient LEDs on the market. Around .5 g/w totally dry. About 1/4 of HPS max =/. Now I hear anecdotal claims of around 1g/w but haven't seen the data and that still puts LED falling short of HID.

[robotdinosaur]

Originally Posted by NoBsplz

Interesting, I've always had the idea that a single powerful point light source would beat out two lower powered light sources.But thats where this stuff gets interesting, because it's like the old rules just dont apply here.

I read in Jose Cervantes' book that even with HPS, 3 600w bulbs put out more light (better coverage) than 2 100 HPS. As far as lumens/watt, 1000w HPS puts out 140 l/w and a 600w HPS puts out 150 l/w. Not sure if that goes the same for LEDs - but you would think there would be some similarity.

[NoBsplz]

Originally Posted by 6951A

The problem I see with LED is that all the claims I've seen so far are anecdotal. The few grow logs that have been done never document the relevant data (fully dried grams/watt). It's generally (at best) pics of plants that were grown under LED but no hard numbers. Show me the triple beam!

Those grow logs are even few and far between, most are just anecdotally "I got this", which is fine for demonstrating that a light will grow "something" but in my opinion, HPS is the top dog, and if you wanna claim you can beat the top dog you need hard numbers. The only hard numbers i've seen were from a couple years ago when I was part of a custome made light from Cree Xlamps which at the time were the most effecient LEDs on the market. Around .5 g/w totally dry. About 1/4 of HPS max =/. Now I hear anecdotal claims of around 1g/w but haven't seen the data and that still puts LED falling short of HID.

Thats my biggest problem.I love the idea.I'm literally standing by for HARD DATA- scale pics, anything that will confirm that I'm making a wise investment.But to date I havent seen a 3/4 lb yield from any type of system, at least no single unit.I love the experiments, and have nothing but respect for the brave souls taking the plunge.But I need assurance that dropping a g or more will exceed the results I'm getting now.Because if it dosent, whats the point?The tek has grown leaps and bounds in a short while, demand will do that, but I need proof that we are indeed there.

[NoBsplz]

Originally Posted by robotdinosaur

I read in Jose Cervantes' book that even with HPS, 3 600w bulbs put out more light (better coverage) than 2 100 HPS. As far as lumens/watt, 1000w HPS puts out 140 l/w and a 600w HPS puts out 150 l/w. Not sure if that goes the same for LEDs - but you would think there would be some similarity.

That makes sense, I never knew about the 150lm/watt output of the 600.Always learning.But I can picture 3 600's over a canopy, and I can picture 2-1000's.3 600 watters over a canopy... I can dig it.

[moonwalker88]

working with the enhanched supernova, its there but a little slower, some strains take better under the lights.....black dom is good for led.....hid is much better.

[NoBsplz]

Originally Posted by moonwalker88

working with the enhanched supernova, its there but a little slower, some strains take better under the lights.....black dom is good for led.....hid is much better.

so it really is partial to certain strains, I've heard this from a few growers.I just wanna say thanks moonwalker, for going where I'm too chicken to go- and your honesty.It seems to be getting better every couple months or so- it'll be interesting to see what comes up next.I've seen the end product steadily improve over the last year-the buds are looking developed, and covered in trichs.I just need to know the required wattage to replace my 400.But I understand this is all new, and it's going to take time for the results to come in.I've been following this for 2 years now-I can hold off a little longer.

[Michael]

NoBs, that grow I linked you to, in the other forum, used 10 - 180s. He got 1.25 gr/watt with Big Bud. He used 4 - 2 gal pots per light. His new project will use one ten gallon pot under each light. He thinks he can get 8 oz per light this way.

Real people. Real numbers.

I would just like to correct one thing. I do work for ProSource. But, I'm not in sales. I'm in research. Otherwise, I'd be too busy selling lights to hang out here.