It took me almost 3 years - GreenPassion.org - Dedicated to Medicinal Cannabis Cultivation and Education

4maggio · #1 (**permalink**) 05-21-2009, 04:46 PM

High all.. I, most reciently, have been reading primarily about EBB & Flow and the seedling stage of growth.

I haven't been too sucessfull in the 2 weeks between initial germination (where I do get very good results, almost 100%) and the next two weeks of growth, where I only get 1 or 2 seedling that would make it out of 10..

This has been going on since I started this hobby...
Yesterday, I think I sorted out my shortcomings, when I threw a thermoeter sensor next to the 8 day old babies.
That 200w cfl I use for germ > veg is kept 2-3 inches from the babies... I wasn't getting enough cool air to them..
All the talk about cfls being cooler, (maybe they meen cooler on the kelvin scale) I never realized it was pushing 90F+ in there.
I was frying those babies. I've not raised the light but concintrated 70F air on them, keeping the temps in the mid 70s and they (all 5) are happy as hell.. 1st time!

My advice.. CFLs aren't as 'cool' (in small places) as they say, without proper ventilation/temps.

Shinningwind · #2 (**permalink**) 05-21-2009, 04:52 PM

I allways have a fan blowing the air around between the light and the top of the plants. That helps alot.
Thanks for sharing 4maggio

P@ssw0rd · #3 (**permalink**) 05-21-2009, 05:00 PM

As bad as making a mistake or failing to realize something feels it always feels so much better when you solve the problem. Glad to hear you got things sorted out, Feels good huh?

Newfriend · #4 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4maggio

High all.. I, most reciently, have been reading primarily about EBB & Flow and the seedling stage of growth.

I haven't been too sucessfull in the 2 weeks between initial germination (where I do get very good results, almost 100%) and the next two weeks of growth, where I only get 1 or 2 seedling that would make it out of 10..

This has been going on since I started this hobby...
Yesterday, I think I sorted out my shortcomings, when I threw a thermoeter sensor next to the 8 day old babies.
That 200w cfl I use for germ > veg is kept 2-3 inches from the babies... I wasn't getting enough cool air to them..
All the talk about cfls being cooler, (maybe they meen cooler on the kelvin scale) I never realized it was pushing 90F+ in there.
I was frying those babies. I've not raised the light but concintrated 70F air on them, keeping the temps in the mid 70s and they (all 5) are happy as hell.. 1st time!

My advice.. CFLs aren't as 'cool' (in small places) as they say, without proper ventilation/temps.

Be careful not to have so much air blowing on the leaves that it evaperates all there moisture.
I have a humity meter right beside the temp gage at the top of the plants.
When I first started I had lots of air blowing directly on the plants.
They would turn yellowish.
Once I had indirect air and a humidifier set at 60% all was good.
I try to drop the humidity as low as I can the last 3 weeks.
Good luck

4maggio · #5 (**permalink**) 05-23-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newfriend

Be careful not to have so much air blowing on the leaves that it evaperates all there moisture.
I have a humity meter right beside the temp gage at the top of the plants.
When I first started I had lots of air blowing directly on the plants.
They would turn yellowish.
Once I had indirect air and a humidifier set at 60% all was good.
I try to drop the humidity as low as I can the last 3 weeks.
Good luck

Thanks Newfriend.. I haden't given the evaporation on those little babies a thought...
Only thinking about keeping the temps 75is... they are a little light green.. just put a shallow dome over them..

This gets as complicated as a good golf swing does.

Texas Liar · #6 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 01:59 AM

I had the same problem. Straight fluorescents spread their heat over their length. A CFL is a straight fluorescent twisted. A lot more heat (and light) concentrated in a small area. Plants can also get radiation burn if too close to a CFL. The obvious answer is to raise the light, but I believe most anyone who has used standard fluorescents and then switches to CFLs will put them too close based on their experience with standard fluorescents. Hopefully some will read this and not make the same mistake. Peace,Tex

Hatch · #7 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 02:33 AM

Way To Stay With It Till You Figured Something Out, Air Exchange, & The Air Flow Circulating Are Very Key Factors In Any Growing Environment. & Ya CFL's Will Get Hot & If You Get Them To Close They Will Burn Your Plants.

Best Of Luck, Wishes, & Karma On This Grow & In The Future..

Cheers`;`Hatch`;`

Richard Owl Mirror · #8 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 02:38 AM

Here is an idea you may try.
Rather than having a fan blowing against the plants, try using your fan to suck the heated air away from the plants by having the fan above the plants, forcing the upwards and away.
If possible, towards your air out take vent.
You want to remove the heated air and replace with cooler air.
You also could use small pop bottles and, freeze water. Place these frozen chunks of water near the center if possible. Then simply replace each after they have melted. You would want a half-dozen or so in order to rotate and refreeze them.
Of course this will add to your humidity but, maybe your strain will like it?

Just a cheap thought of exchanging the air, cool replacing hot.

The HSIC · #9 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 09:43 AM

I'm glad you figured it out.

CFL's run HOT...and contrary to what most CFL folks believe...cost more to run/are more inefficient than HID's.

Do what Richard suggests with the fan or blow it against the wall and let it bounce around. the key is to see SWAYING....and not a full-on bending of the stems.

good luck going forward

ww

jangel · #10 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 10:43 AM

I have found them very hot as well, maggio. This is why I switched to vegging with t-5's. They seem to have better penetration, and are eaiser to cool. When I first started, before our room was finished, I tried them all, but hid lights and found in a closet especailly they where very difficult to control the heat. I switched to cheap T-8's for vegging seedlings before I got the t-5's. You can find these pretty econimaclly at either salvage stores like The restore, habitate for humanity or a similiar store. and I bought one double set, 24 inches from Home depot. Get the daylight ones or the right lumens for vegging (2400k or so) but mix them and you will not have a problem. Now in my veg area I save the cfl's for bigger plants that I veg and just use tube flouros for most of my plants. Take a look at my first grow journal to read more on this (My little grow or what not to do 101A) top link in my signature.
My trials might help you out, friend.

Glad you figured it out.

Peace

4maggio · #11 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jangel

I have found them very hot as well, maggio. This is why I switched to vegging with t-5's. They seem to have better penetration, and are eaiser to cool. When I first started, before our room was finished, I tried them all, but hid lights and found in a closet especailly they where very difficult to control the heat. I switched to cheap T-8's for vegging seedlings before I got the t-5's. You can find these pretty econimaclly at either salvage stores like The restore, habitate for humanity or a similiar store. and I bought one double set, 24 inches from Home depot. Get the daylight ones or the right lumens for vegging (2400k or so) but mix them and you will not have a problem. Now in my veg area I save the cfl's for bigger plants that I veg and just use tube flouros for most of my plants. Take a look at my first grow journal to read more on this (My little grow or what not to do 101A) top link in my signature.
My trials might help you out, friend.

Glad you figured it out.

Peace

High jangel.. everyone...

thanks for the information.. I'll look at that 101a thread right now.

I do use a 14inch double t5 (white) for cloning.. at only 2-3 inches away from babies, without a fan temps stay at 76ish .. it is very effective there.
I didn't give them any thought for veg, because my veg/clone area is (was!) too small. Now that it is bigger, I might look into the T5s (24" x 4)..
now that I realize that: 1- I must keep that 200w cfl at about 6-7 inches away from babies (seedlings)
untill after that fragile stage (10 days or so) and 2- They love it after that, even a little closer.
I keep that top leaf at 76-77F (Laser Therm - Harbor Freight ($39).

It is good to have an audience to bounce thinkgs off of...
and even nicer to get intilegent answers..

Thanks everyone.

justanotherbozo · #12 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4maggio

High all.. I, most reciently, have been reading primarily about EBB & Flow and the seedling stage of growth.

I haven't been too sucessfull in the 2 weeks between initial germination (where I do get very good results, almost 100%) and the next two weeks of growth, where I only get 1 or 2 seedling that would make it out of 10..

This has been going on since I started this hobby...
Yesterday, I think I sorted out my shortcomings, when I threw a thermoeter sensor next to the 8 day old babies.
That 200w cfl I use for germ > veg is kept 2-3 inches from the babies... I wasn't getting enough cool air to them..
All the talk about cfls being cooler, (maybe they meen cooler on the kelvin scale) I never realized it was pushing 90F+ in there.
I was frying those babies. I've not raised the light but concintrated 70F air on them, keeping the temps in the mid 70s and they (all 5) are happy as hell.. 1st time!

My advice.. CFLs aren't as 'cool' (in small places) as they say, without proper ventilation/temps.

high man, as a CFL'er myself, i thought maybe i'd jump in.

as you have found, CFL's do run hot, and in truth, they run hotter than HID's,
the only advantage, regarding heat, is that because the heat is spread over many
bulbs, it's easier to deal with. ...that's the main reason i don't use those high-wattage
bulbs as, with them, you lose that advantage.

another thing to consider is that you don't need anywhere near 200watts of
light on your seedlings, i'd recommend using 23 or 26watters and only 2 or 3 of them!

that alone will eliminate most of the heat that is cooking your babies.

also, adding a fan is a must as it will help promote stem growth which will make
your plants stronger.

the only caution is that you should follow windowpane watson's advice and
aim the fan against the wall for indirect, weak wind to your seedlings until they
get a bit older and stronger.

btw, i keep all my mothers (i have 17 at the moment) and my rooted clones
(waiting to enter the fruiting chamber) in my new mother cab which only has
4x 24watt T5HO bulbs for a total of 96watts. ...and i'm getting plenty of new
growth. (although it is a bit cramped in there, lol)

4maggio · #13 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

high man, as a CFL'er myself, i thought maybe i'd jump in.

as you have found, CFL's do run hot, and in truth, they run hotter than HID's,
the only advantage, regarding heat, is that because the heat is spread over many
bulbs, it's easier to deal with. ...that's the main reason i don't use those high-wattage
bulbs as, with them, you lose that advantage.

another thing to consider is that you don't need anywhere near 200watts of
light on your seedlings, i'd recommend using 23 or 26watters and only 2 or 3 of them!

that alone will eliminate most of the heat that is cooking your babies.

also, adding a fan is a must as it will help promote stem growth which will make
your plants stronger.

the only caution is that you should follow windowpane watson's advice and
aim the fan against the wall for indirect, weak wind to your seedlings until they
get a bit older and stronger.

btw, i keep all my mothers (i have 17 at the moment) and my rooted clones
(waiting to enter the fruiting chamber) in my new mother cab which only has
4x 24watt T5HO bulbs for a total of 96watts. ...and i'm getting plenty of new
growth. (although it is a bit cramped in there, lol)

High Bozo.. thank yuo for the advice..

I've often thought of using smaller cfls for seedlings but taking the 200w cfl out of the hood is a PITA, so I will adjust. That box is for seedling/vegging.. the 200w cfl keeps them very small.. I use a laser thermometer to controll light hight (77F at highest shoot).

And as I mentioned above, I do use the 14inc T5s forcloning.. maybe I should try the seelings there for the first week..

fightdiseases · #14 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 02:15 PM

frozen water bottles in your room is a great idea BUT make sure you don't fill all the way to leave room for melting, or you will have water everywhere....just a thought, cause I can never find my lid when I need it.

justanotherbozo · #15 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4maggio

High Bozo.. thank yuo for the advice..

you're welcome man, ...you help out around here your own bad self bro! ...lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4maggio

I've often thought of using smaller cfls for seedlings but taking the 200w cfl out of the hood is a PITA, so I will adjust. That box is for seedling/vegging.. the 200w cfl keeps them very small.. I use a laser thermometer to controll light hight (77F at highest shoot).

is the bulb by any chance high in the Kelvin scale, above 5000? ...that is another
disadvantage to the higher wattage bulbs, with lower wattage bulbs, it's much
easier to add both blues AND reds.

i suspect your bulb because 200watts of nothing but blue light will give you decent
growth, but you will have very short internodes which is good if your vegging
for flower, but not so good if you are growing moms for cutting production.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4maggio

And as I mentioned above, I do use the 14inc T5s forcloning.. maybe I should try the seelings there for the first week..

maybe even the first 2 weeks, by then they should be ready to eat, lol.

justanotherbozo · #16 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fightdiseases

frozen water bottles in your room is a great idea BUT make sure you don't fill all the way to leave room for melting, or you will have water everywhere....just a thought, cause I can never find my lid when I need it.

rotflmao!

you're supposed to put the caps on the bottles before you freeze them, lol,
just don't tighten them until they are frozen, lol, ...and be sure to leave a little
air space at the top, water expands when it freezes!

you could also just go to a hardware store or walmart and pick up a few of
those plastic cooler ice-packs, then just freeze them and pop them into your res, lol.

here man, take another hit, lol.

fightdiseases · #17 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 03:18 PM

LOL, either way WE all hope your girls are growing nice

SmokeToLive · #18 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

you could also just go to a hardware store or walmart and pick up a few of
those plastic cooler ice-packs, then just freeze them and pop them into your res, lol.

That sounds like a good idea unless one of them breaks / leaks. Then god knows what you are feeding your plants.

4maggio · #19 (**permalink**) 06-26-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

you're welcome man, ...you help out around here your own bad self bro! ...lol.

is the bulb by any chance high in the Kelvin scale, above 5000? ...that is another
disadvantage to the higher wattage bulbs, with lower wattage bulbs, it's much
easier to add both blues AND reds.

i suspect your bulb because 200watts of nothing but blue light will give you decent
growth, but you will have very short internodes which is good if your vegging
for flower, but not so good if you are growing moms for cutting production.

maybe even the first 2 weeks, by then they should be ready to eat, lol.

High bozo.. yes, that bulb is 5500K.. better for veg (blue).. great for the clones. Well the 200w is working now..

Cu around..

Texas Liar · #20 (**permalink**) 06-27-2009, 10:26 PM

The bulbs I use are actually 42 watts, 150 watt equivalent, but I used two in one reflector using several Ys. I did use one soft white and a daylight. My intent was always to cremate them, just not this soon.

The IR thermometer is an excellent idea to check temps. I'll be getting one.
THANKS,

Tex