First Grow Wisdom - GreenPassion.org - Dedicated to Medicinal Cannabis Cultivation and Education

insub4u2 · #1 (**permalink**) 02-07-2009, 08:24 PM

After 2 months of endless reading, blogging, asking, tweaking, changing, learning, and building, I have 5 healthy 12 day old White Widows in a closet grow. So rather than approaching this from a successful results standpoint, I felt if may be useful to share some generalities that would have saved me some time and extra work, had I known when I started . I'll break this down into advice, and sharing my results as I go along, in hopes that first, I'm successful(!!), and second, that it makes your life a little easier!

So, here's what I've learned philosophically:

1.) Some people have a knack for this, and will be better than you. In school, there was always the class president, who made it look easier than it was for the rest of us.

2.) It will take a minimum of 10 hours reading of online postings to begin PLANNING your first grow. Read, ask, read some more, and ask again. Eventually, it will all start to make sense as common knowledge threads will keep recurring, and those are the ones you'll want to follow. The cool part, is you're going to come up with your own solutions out of necessity relative to your individual circumstance.

3.) Don't try your own experiment first, stay within the lines of successful growers. You will find many opinions, and the best ones will keep recurring as you read, hence the 10 hour minimum homework.

4.) Be patient, pot doesn't grow overnight, and checking it 27 times a day isn't going to hurry it, only slow it down.

My last grow was this spindly Mexican stuff, 20 years ago, without lights, and zero knowledge of anything but K mart potting soil. But even those plants got 4 feet tall! The point being, I/you can do this!

insub4u2 · #2 (**permalink**) 02-07-2009, 08:45 PM

Whoa, why do all this work if you're going to grow from the same shitty pot we've been buying? So, do some homework. If your counrty is illegal, acknowledge the risk and manage it. Read other posts about credit cards, cash, atm's, etc, others experience will soothe you more than any advice I may offer.

Rule #1 Don't be stupid. If you use credit cards at seedbanks, you increase your risk over using gift cards, purchased almost anywhere. Make sure they can be used for international purchases. Despite the admonitions, most small growers send to their home address, and if you enter that info online, someone has it anyway C'mon, rule #1, is never, ever, ever, never tell ANYONE, or the next person you'll be telling is your lawyer. So I don't get these ideas to never send anything to where you are growing, since that already expands the circle of who knows what you might be doing. Besides, it will really sticky for your Mom to expalin those Skunk seeds that keep showing up at her house. So pay cash for supplies, out of town if possible, whenever possible. Every person you involve in seed buying is one more person or address who shouldn't be. One trick if sending to your home address, use initials, or extremley similar mailing names, ie, Phyl instead of Phyllis, Jack, instead of John, Georgie instead of George. When it arrives, keep it unopened for a few weeks. There's such a thing as plausible deniability.

2) Read reviews from reputable sites, like this one. Follow those who have gone before you.

3.) Take your advice from people who need it, not from stoners.

4.) Ask. Others know what seeds will grow, look for banks/growers that keep coming up positive. Here's a link:Green man's Seedbank Update

5.) Manage your paranoia. 10 seeds isn't what the NSA is looking for.

jangel · #3 (**permalink**) 02-07-2009, 09:03 PM

...you got it baby.

Peace

raf33 · #4 (**permalink**) 02-07-2009, 09:25 PM

...read what's on the label on the bottle ..always...ah,and think what you do and why

insub4u2 · #5 (**permalink**) 02-08-2009, 12:26 PM

I've divided my grow into three areas, and after you work through these, you're on your way. Those are, 1.) Soil/medium/nutrients 2.) Light and 3.) Environment

Growing is liking cooking Chinese. It cooks very fast, but it takes a lot of time slicing and dicing the ingredients to GET READY to cook. Doing your homework up front saves time down the road.

So, here's what I did while I was waiting on my seeds to arrive:

First, I decided I wanted to go organic, and here's my final recipe 40% Miracle Grow Organic (ok, grow nerds, I'm going to change out of MG next grow, besides, I don't want my friends to know I use that stuff!!) , 30% perlite, 10% vermucilite, 20% worm castings. To each gallon of this mix, I added 1/3 c per gal of high Nit bat guana, 1/2 c high phospherous bat guanao, 1 T jersey green sand, 1 T powdered kelp, 1 T dolemite lime. I ordered everthing online, except Perlite and Vermucilite. I tried to order from Garden outlets rather than hydroponic supply firms, since I read they more discrete. I mean if you're ordering 6 bags of worm castings from hydro supply stores in Northern Cal shipped to the midwest, well, do the math. This is very similar to recipes on this site, but at times you have to compromise based on what is locally available. There are much simpler recipes here, such as Wal Mart soiless mix, perlite, and bone meal, that some swear by, but I love to cook, so went with something a little more complex. I decided I did not want to repot more than once during my first grow, so I started my seedlings in 3 inch peat pots, and transferred them directly into the 3 gal final pots 10 days old. So far, so good!!

Lights. Hps is better than CFL's, and more flexible from start to finish than Metal Halide, period, done, end of story. 20 years ago, I read the key to super pot is light, specifically, 1000 watt Metal Halides. Of all the variables, light is most critical to the success you are striving for. Again, why do all this work to grow average pot? Many can grow and have reasonable results with CFL's (compact flourescent light), with new technology, but the results will not be as good as investing in an HPS system. Setups will cost beginning at mid $200 with ballasts, reflector, cords, and bulbs, for a 400 watt system. I went with 400 watts, because the heat is managable in small spaces. Shop online, and ask here. But first, determine your space and how much light it can handle!!

Last, environment. Where are you going to grow? DON"T make it rocket science, it's not! Follow the basics, and you'll be fine. Think temperature, humidity, and ventilation. Ideal temp is 75-85 or so, humidity about 40-60%, and for ventilation, air should exchange every 3-5 minute, but any reasonable fan will get it done much faster. Rule of thumb, 2 times passive return air as active exhaust. In my case, that meeans two 4 inch returns( I used dryer duct fixtures) for my 1 4" exhaust fan. Whisper fans are everywhere, very quiet, and easy to install. Check out some threads here.

Now, you need ventilation for two reasons, to control heat, and provide fresh air/co2 for your plants. A well ventilated area may handle more light, as any HPS is going to throw off some heatnd more light is almost always good!! I've combined both my cooling and ventilation into one system, as I have limited space, and it just seemed to make sense.

Humidity! Ahhh, I forgot this getting my room set up!! It can flucutate wildly when you start watering larger pots, in a sealed area, with ventilation and lights. So buy a thermometer/humidity gage for $5 at Lowes. Set up your room, water the soil, turn your lights on, and see where the numbers add up. It's easier to fix a problem now, than to work around your seedlings in fear it's too hot, too cold, to wet, or too dry.

So here's some pics of my setup in construction and ready to begin. I used a Powerhouse ballast, hydrofarm reflector, and 430 watt Son Agro bulb. Vents are Lowes dryer ducts, and fan is a dayton whisper 4" pulling 100 CFM(cubic feet per minute) By the way, figure the cubic feet of your room, and size a fan to it. iWidth times length times height will give you cubes of space. Oversizing fans and ventilation will only give you more problems to solve, ie pressure, heat/cold, humidity, etc. More is not always better. If a 4" fan will work, don't buy an 8". If you do, it means you have too much testosterone, and should smoke a fatty before construction begins. The ventilation stuff probably cost me 50-60 bucks total, but I bought the best ballast and light I could find, which was about $450. Cheaper wing reflectors will run much hotter, so be aware that you may have to spend more to cool it down, but not much.

A final note on environment, think safety!!! Don't gerry rig anything electrical, without knowing what you are doing!!! I'm an electrical moron,but learned that for every 100 watts, you'll pull about 1 amp. My house is on 15 amp breakers, so that means with two fans, and 430 watt light, I'm pulling about 5-6 amps, well within safety. Use a 12 extension cord, rather than a 14, or 16, as it will run cooler, and put it on a breaker strip, or GFCI(ground fault circuit interuptor), those plugs you see in hotel bathrooms. ASK FIRST!!!

Here's my room pic's. You can read my other threads on fans, ventilation, soi recipes, and electrical questions:

insub4u2 · #6 (**permalink**) 02-08-2009, 12:52 PM

Germination!! Neccessity is the mother of invention, but they still haven't improved much over the old paper towel method used 30 years ago. I put my plate on an old heat pad, with several towels on top, inside a tupperware container. I know, I know, don't get it wet!! It's what I had around the house, will get a seed pad next time out. When they sprouted (within 24 hours!) I immediately put them in my soil mix, in peat pots, also inside the tupperware on the heat pad. By the way, I noticed marked difference using the heat pad. My tupperware stayed perfect around 76, and it seemed everything was easier when humidity and temps stayed steady, about 74 and 60%, where they should be for germination. I then put a 42 watt CFL reading light over them that I'd forgot I even had!! Very bright, actually, the 70 watt version is recommended for seasonal affective disorder. To keep humidity up, I covered the tupperware with plastic wrap until the seedlings were about an inch and a half, two inches tall. I also placed a cup of water with them to keep humidity up, and used a spray bottle to gently water them the first 6 days. They can dry out quick, and noticed as soon as they got their first leaves, humidity dropped drastically. I assume that's because they are coming alive and drinking it up?

Here's 2-6 days pics these are all Seedsman White Widows:

insub4u2 · #7 (**permalink**) 02-08-2009, 01:06 PM

I can't have seedlings on my kitchen counter for long, so decided to make the leap to the main grow room on day 10. The potting mix is the same, and actually, I didn't have to touch to seedlings, as just left them in the peat pots. To give them room to stretch, I took scissors and gently cut 4 slits in the bottom of each pot, and slit all 4 sides once in the main pots. I had already had the soil in my grow room watered well, and marinating to get all the good bugs working. Also, as a sideline, watering your pots prior to planting gives you a good idea how well it's going to drain, and how much water you'll need every 4-5 days. If it's not loose enough, now's the time to find out, before you plant your seedlings. It also ups the humidity in your room, and being in the midwest, it's been bone dry lately!! Also, since they'd been so good, I gave them a teaspoon of molasses in a gal of water yesterday.

Here's what they look like at 10-11 days!! Rock and roll.

jangel · #8 (**permalink**) 02-08-2009, 01:08 PM

Another grow nerd! Welcome to the club! I learned so much just studieing like you have. I can respect that and you will have good success.

Also, read peoples first journals, not the later ones. That way you can see others make mistakes and know how they solved it, without having to do it all yourself! LOL!

insub4u2 · #9 (**permalink**) 02-08-2009, 01:14 PM

Who are you calling a grow nerd?!! LOL

Boy, you try and help some people!!! I feel like I'm watching my Mom bake bread, where we're all hangin out in the kitchen asking, "Is it done yet, is it done yet?"

Got to go check on my babies, I'm down to only 17 checks checks per day, so making progress!!

jangel · #10 (**permalink**) 02-08-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insub4u2

Who are you calling a grow nerd?!! LOL

Got to go check on my babies, I'm down to only 17 checks checks per day, so making progress!!

I meant it in only the very best of ways, you know that, cheeky get!

LOL!

insub4u2 · #11 (**permalink**) 02-08-2009, 05:29 PM

The weddings off!! LOL

I'm cracking myself up!!! My favorite joke in the world, "Horse walks into a bar, bartender says, "Say, bud, why the long face?" lololololol

"Don't bogart that joint, my friend, pass it over to me!! You've been hangin' on to it, and I suuurre would like a hit."

insub4u2 · #12 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 08:53 AM

Was wondering when these would start to take off, and think we are on our way! Two of the five were kind of lagging, and I think I had the light too close, and when misting the babies, water droplets may have been burning the leaves a bit, although heat is perfect 78 degrees or so.

Watering about every 3-4 days, or when dry. Humidity is up with the humidifier I bought at Walgreens for $15 bucks.

jangel · #13 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 09:04 AM

DO NOT mist under the lights. It will burn the plant's new leaves. Either move them further from the light or do it out of the light. Those leaves will be damaged as the droplets act like prisms for the light and will damage the leaves.

insub4u2 · #14 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 09:22 AM

That's information I could have used YESTERDAYYYYY!!!!!

Thanks, grow and learn!!! They are actually looking pretty good, nice, green, stems getting thicker, not stretching. Even the stragglers are starting to catch up. But, I suppose it's normal in every grow to have a few seeds with better results than the others. They are about 2 1/2 inch from seeds at 14 days.

jangel · #15 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 09:35 AM

Sorry babes. I had something I had to do yesterday.

Peace

insub4u2 · #16 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 12:31 PM

Hey, Jang, I was teasing about yesterday, of course. It's fun learning stuff as I go through this.

I see a lot of posts about repotting plants several different times before their final resting place. Can you shed any light on why this is done, and what it does to improve your final results?

With very limited space (closet grow), I do not have a seperate germination space, so tried going to my main 3 gal pots ASAP after seedlings were up well in peat pots, and they seem to be doing quite well now. Is there a reason NOT to do this quickly? Is there a compelling reason NOT to place germinated seeds directly into the 3 gal pots immediately, assuming you watch lights, moisture, heat, etc? I had thought of going straight to my pots next time, covering them with plastic wrap, and letteing them come up under 42 watt cfl's next time. That way, the only thing I have to move is the lights.

Given time and living restraints, I must be very discreet, so am trying to find excellent results, with minimal complications and/or movement around the house. I enjoy seeing other grows on here, that look better than mine, as it's helpful in learning what they should look like.

Thanks all!!

raf33 · #17 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 01:06 PM

Hi insub4u2,really fantastic setup, beauty my friend.and girls are going strong

isn't the world a good place to be on?

jangel · #18 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 01:28 PM

Okay, now you want my lecture on feet of plants....hmmmm.....OKAY here we go!

The roots of your plant are like the feet of an army. If they are not well kept, and dry and in good condition, then that army will not be going far as they will have major problems. Any soldier knows this.

So it is true with plants, especially our plant. When you plant a seed, it seeks to fill in that soil with new roots. IF there is a ton of soil, those roots will keep seeking and seeking to fill that pot up with roots, and quite often not put out the leaves it needs. SO you COULD have a large pot full of roots, with just a little plant. That does not usually happen though. What will happen is the plant will send out a long tap root and the root will go low and deep in the pot. IF your pot is bigger than the seedling needs, some parts of that soil will be soaked wet and other parts will be dry. What this does is encourages anerobic activity, such as root rot or other things that encourage disease and mold. Also, since your plant is not using all that water, it will take forever to dry out and could rot first.

This is what I have found works best for me. I plant all my seedlings in small pots at first. (2 to 4 inches) This encourages roots to fill up and use all of that soil. (which should have NO NUTES in it) Once that little plant is sending roots out the drainage holes, it is ready for a bigger pair of shoes. At this point usually those first leaves are gone and they have a few nodes. n Then you plant up usually to a pot twice that size. I go to a deeper, rather than a wider pot. This encourages a deeper, stronger root system and you can bury up to those first leaves in soil and also have roots develope there, which is great if your plants have streched Then the plant will fill up those shoes. This makes the roots use up the norishment in the soil and grow OUTWARDS, not down. The plant will have healthier roots, the soil will be equally moist, you will not have areas that are dry and areas that are wet. Potting up gradually not only makes the plants healthier but actually they will grow faster, with healtier roots and you do not need as much soil to start and the food in the soil will be used up before potting up. This way you can also add to your soil the needed nutes before flowering, which are different than the nutes needed for veg and you will all around be more in control of your plants.

Now, that is what I have found. I am sure many growers have different opinions.

Peace

insub4u2 · #19 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 02:53 PM

Here's some better pictures. Already I would do several things differently. 1# Use only potting medium for first pots, 2#Leave them in the pots till I see the roots in the bottom hole, and 3# Start the HPS at 24" and DON"T MIST THEM UNDER THE LIGHTS TOO CLOSE!!

Here they are today, say hello, girls! Can anyone tell me how these look for 16 days olds? Thanks!!

jangel · #20 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 02:59 PM

VERY nice. good lateral growth, nice leaves. Looks to me like when you are watering you just water around where the plant is and leave the rest of the soil dry. Not good, but I guess you have no choice in such big pots. usually you water around the edges, not in the middle at all, avoid the center. This also makes the roots go OUT to get the moisture and not just down. Those are one gallon pots aren't they?

Peace